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Re: Modernization of Rules - USGA/R&A

Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:23 am
by DougE
I looked it up in The Little English Handbook, 3rd Edition, by Corbett, a helpful book I have kept on my desk since I began writing advertising and marketing copy over 30 years ago. Grammer, correct usage of words and spelling are big deals when presenting information and messages on behalf of a client. So I am a stickler for both (though, I'm sure I have made my share of mistakes on this site since I don't spend the time reviewing what I write before I post it most of the time). But, I'm getting off the subject.

The Little English Handbook, was actually not very helpful in this instance. The words "lie" and "lay" are clearly defined as to how they should be used, but the samples do not really take into account the way we use those words in golf.

Lie (past tense lay, past participle lain (not laid), is an intransitive verb meaning "to rest," "to recline." (The book lies on the table. It has lain there for three days.) Lay, past tense laid, is a transitive verb (must be followed by an object), meaning "to put down." (She lays the book on the table. Yesterday she laid the book on the mantel piece.)

Not really sure if that explanation answers the question, but, who would have imagined this thread would get to here, when it started? :facepalm

Re: Modernization of Rules - USGA/R&A

Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:25 am
by DougE
Wow, two new posts in the time it took me to write the above post. Sorry for the late and redundant reply.

Re: Modernization of Rules - USGA/R&A

Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:28 am
by legitimatebeef
DougE wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:23 am
The words "lie" and "lay" are clearly defined as to how they should be used, but the samples do not really take into account the way we use those words in golf.
Then it'll be up to us to codify and standardize its usage :school

Re: Modernization of Rules - USGA/R&A

Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:36 am
by srogers13
legitimatebeef wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:14 am
There's also the new drop procedure, from knee height. :fuckall
I would like Verne Troyer as my playing partner so I could drop from his knee height.

Re: Modernization of Rules - USGA/R&A

Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:41 am
by jattruia
legitimatebeef wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:14 am
There's also the new drop procedure, from knee height. :fuckall

Pussification of the world. :nope
I think the new drop can actually prove the opposite. After two shitty drops you get to place it anyway. At least this way there's a better chance of the ball settling down instead of bouncing out and getting another attempt.

Re: Modernization of Rules - USGA/R&A

Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:47 am
by legitimatebeef
I always thought of the shoulder drop as a way of introducing an element of randomness to the placement of the ball, which I find entirely appropriate. Randomness being a key characteristic of golf. Let's get real here, the knee drop will result in choicer lies overall.

Shitty drops that don't stay put only happen on steep slopes with bare coverage. Everywhere else, dropping is a crapshoot. As it should be :onfire

Re: Modernization of Rules - USGA/R&A

Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:03 pm
by jasonfish11
jattruia wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:41 am
legitimatebeef wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:14 am
There's also the new drop procedure, from knee height. :fuckall

Pussification of the world. :nope
I think the new drop can actually prove the opposite. After two shitty drops you get to place it anyway. At least this way there's a better chance of the ball settling down instead of bouncing out and getting another attempt.
You have the option to drop it from higher, you just can't drop it lower than knee height. So if you are on a slope and hope to get to place the ball it may be worth dropping it from well above shoulder height.

Re: Modernization of Rules - USGA/R&A

Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:19 pm
by DougE
Jason, have you seen the official rule on that yet? I'm not sure about dropping from as high as you want. I have seen it written on line as "from knee height or above" but on the USGA site they say from approximately knee height, with no mention of or above. I hope you are right, because there are many situations where dropping from further up could get you a more favorable outcome.

Re: Modernization of Rules - USGA/R&A

Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:33 pm
by jasonfish11
I think you are right.

http://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-p ... -ball.html

Given the intent of the change is to prevent the ball from coming to rest outside of the drop area I would think dropping from above knee height in order to cause the ball to wind up out of the relief area would be counter to that change. So my assumption (although not specifically stated above) would be you can't drop it from as high as you want.

Re: Modernization of Rules - USGA/R&A

Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:00 pm
by DougE
I like being able to ground my club in a hazard ("penalty area") now. That does NOT include in a bunker, which I think is a good thing. The new rules will also allow for removing loose impediments in a bunker, which I also think is a good thing. I assume we've all seen bunkers with rocks the size of baseballs sitting next to your ball.

Re: Modernization of Rules - USGA/R&A

Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:34 pm
by jasonfish11
Also it's good you can let the club touch the sand. I often bring 2 wedges near a bunker then pick one based on how firm the sand is. Now I can bring both in and just drop one in the bunker until I'm done instead of walking in the bunker realizing I have the wrong wedge walking back out and changing it.

Re: Modernization of Rules - USGA/R&A

Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:19 pm
by legitimatebeef
jasonfish11 wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:34 pm
Also it's good you can let the club touch the sand. I often bring 2 wedges near a bunker then pick one based on how firm the sand is. Now I can bring both in and just drop one in the bunker until I'm done instead of walking in the bunker realizing I have the wrong wedge walking back out and changing it.
Guess I am going to play the devil's jerkass advocate here but I don't like this. Soon as you drop an object onto some sand, you learn something about its consistency. :fk

My whole objection to these rules changes is that they will essentially make the game easier (in terms of scoring), and by too-significant a margin. Too much change, too suddenly. :nope

Re: Modernization of Rules - USGA/R&A

Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:33 pm
by jasonfish11
legitimatebeef wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:19 pm

Guess I am going to play the devil's jerkass advocate here but I don't like this. Soon as you drop an object onto some sand, you learn something about its consistency. :fk
So you some how over over the sand while playing from the bunker.

Do you feel you will learn anything materially different from dropping a club in the sand than you do by walking into it. To be honest I'll most likely toss it out of small bunkers, to prevent the grip from getting sand on it, but lay it down in bigger ones where tossing it involves a bit of flight for my wedge.

Re: Modernization of Rules - USGA/R&A

Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:38 pm
by legitimatebeef
Walking in a bunker is unavoidable numbnuts. Don't try your little logic traps on the beefster IMO.

Re: Modernization of Rules - USGA/R&A

Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:50 pm
by GBOGEY
legitimatebeef wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:19 pm
My whole objection to these rules changes is that they will essentially make the game easier (in terms of scoring), and by too-significant a margin. Too much change, too suddenly. :nope
I can see why you might say that but not sure I agree with one or two exceptions:

Grounding a club in a hazard does make golf easier, but how often does this come into play - not often in NJ although maybe a lot in Florida.

Declaring areas as hazards, such as on a desert course. Again, this makes golf easier, but if I think about the courses I usually play I don't see where this will ever be used, unless they declare all of the woods a hazard. But if they did, and if a desert course did, this would be reflected in the course rating. Courses do things all the time to make them easier or harder - this is just another tool and regardless of what most people say I think the average golfer enjoys an easier course much more than they let on.

Finally, the whole OB/lost ball thing - this does make golf easier - at least for stroke play. But given that the USGA is clearly moving towards a net DB system, much like the Brits, not sure it changes a lot. My max is currently DB, and I know that when I hit OB it's pretty much going to be a DB. Putting me in the fairly near where the ball went DB doesn't help much.

Re: Modernization of Rules - USGA/R&A

Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:35 pm
by jasonfish11
legitimatebeef wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:38 pm
Walking in a bunker is unavoidable numbnuts. Don't try your little logic traps on the beefster IMO.
Do you feel there is a material difference in the information you gain from walking into the trap and dropping a club in the trap.

Re: Modernization of Rules - USGA/R&A

Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:39 pm
by legitimatebeef
jasonfish11 wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:35 pm
legitimatebeef wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:38 pm
Walking in a bunker is unavoidable numbnuts. Don't try your little logic traps on the beefster IMO.
Do you feel there is a material difference in the information you gain from walking into the trap and dropping a club in the trap.
Yes. Not much, but yes. Dropping a club provides additional information.

Re: Modernization of Rules - USGA/R&A

Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:36 pm
by DougE
legitimatebeef wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:39 pm
jasonfish11 wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:35 pm
legitimatebeef wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:38 pm
Walking in a bunker is unavoidable numbnuts. Don't try your little logic traps on the beefster IMO.
Do you feel there is a material difference in the information you gain from walking into the trap and dropping a club in the trap.
Yes. Not much, but yes. Dropping a club provides additional information.
Not much is right.

You can pretty much dance in the bunker and do the Chubby Checker Twist while taking your stance into the sand to find out how thick it is, and get a feel for how easily it moves. Other than letting your fingers touch the sand as you pick up your putter or extra club, what else can you learn by simply touching the sand that you can't already learn from your legal bunker dance? Am I missing something?

Re: Modernization of Rules - USGA/R&A

Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:55 pm
by legitimatebeef
I know this is a moral grey area but the rules permit you to take a stance. You're not supposed to be testing the ground.

My contention is that this a solution to a non-problem. Who cares about the few times people have to decide between clubs in a bunker. Keep the game pure as possible is what I say. Golf is going to eventually resemble the NFL at this rate. A game that's propped up by a bunch of arbitrary rules.

Re: Modernization of Rules - USGA/R&A

Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:57 pm
by jasonfish11
DougE wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:36 pm
legitimatebeef wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:39 pm
jasonfish11 wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:35 pm


Do you feel there is a material difference in the information you gain from walking into the trap and dropping a club in the trap.
Yes. Not much, but yes. Dropping a club provides additional information.
Not much is right.

You can pretty much dance in the bunker and do the Chubby Checker Twist while taking your stance into the sand to find out how thick it is, and get a feel for how easily it moves. Other than letting your fingers touch the sand as you pick up your putter or extra club, what else can you learn by simply touching the sand that you can't already learn from your legal bunker dance? Am I missing something?
That was kind of my point by asking if it will provide a MATERIAL difference.

I can't see any extra benefit from dropping a club in the bunker, that I wouldn't know from walking in and taking my stance. I wouldn't be tossing the club into the air so it impacted the sand forcefully. Just a softly lay (lie?) the club down in the sand, I'm not a fan of tossing my clubs. If you were putting it down in a way with the intent of finding information it's still against the rules.

Re: Modernization of Rules - USGA/R&A

Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:00 pm
by jasonfish11
I think a bigger problem is bunkers aren't really hazards any more.

I know I don't mind hitting into one, the pros tend to prefer bunkers over deep rough because the rough is less consistent and you have less control.

It would be better if bunkers were really less consistent around the course one rock hard one soft, etc. Then they would be more of a true hazard.

Re: Modernization of Rules - USGA/R&A

Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:05 pm
by DougE
jasonfish11 wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:00 pm
I think a bigger problem is bunkers aren't really hazards any more.

I know I don't mind hitting into one, the pros tend to prefer bunkers over deep rough because the rough is less consistent and you have less control.

It would be better if bunkers were really less consistent around the course one rock hard one soft, etc. Then they would be more of a true hazard.
Don't give the USGA any ideas!

Re: Modernization of Rules - USGA/R&A

Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:13 pm
by jasonfish11
Seriously how many times have you heard a commentator talk about how beautiful and well maintained the bunkers are? They are supposed to be a hazard why is that a good thing?

Re: Modernization of Rules - USGA/R&A

Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:32 pm
by DougE
jasonfish11 wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:13 pm
Seriously how many times have you heard a commentator talk about how beautiful and well maintained the bunkers are? They are supposed to be a hazard why is that a good thing?
Because I know how to get out of well maintained bunkers, and can usually get it somewhat close enough to the hole to have a chance to get up and down.

Re: Modernization of Rules - USGA/R&A

Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:17 am
by jattruia
jasonfish11 wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:00 pm
It would be better if bunkers were really less consistent around the course one rock hard one soft, etc. Then they would be more of a true hazard.
That's right, make them play on OUR level (at least thats how a lot of my courses are already set up.)