Perception of the golf swing

User avatar
legitimatebeef
Posts: 4524
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2015 7:34 pm
Location: island off the coast of america
dogs: 1
Contact:

Perception of the golf swing

Post by legitimatebeef » Sat Aug 01, 2015 3:44 pm

Have you ever thought about your own perception of the swing, and wondered how similar your perception is to the reality of what the club is doing? Or how similar your perception is to a theoretically correct swing?

I am realizing that so much of what was wrong with me and my attempts at swinging was down to faulty perception. For instance I did not have a correct image of how the club actually swings back and through impact, on a shallow plane. Instead I tried to brow beat myself into swinging on a shallow plane. Goddammit, why can't you swing the club on a shallow plane?! Why do you keep standing up at impact and ditching your wrist angles?! This kind of shit led to internal arguments, blowouts, hurt feelings, indignation, resignation, etc.

But whatever confusions may exist in the golf brain, the subconscious still knows what to do--the imperative is to strike the ball hard, with enough speed to launch it high in the air. Shallow plane or any other "correct" movements be damned. And that's why it proved impossible to eliminate certain movements from the swing. You can't just stop early extending. No, you have to tear down the entire thing and pore through the rubble with a fine-toothed comb until you have found what's causing the early extending. Only then can you have any hope of rebuilding a future that doesn't include early extending.

Like many people before me I am interested in identifying the holistic, underlying causes of suckage. So this is a big realization for me. I think this explains why making major golf swing changes ranges from difficult to impossible--you need to be able to perceive both what it is you are actually doing, AND what it is you would like to do. Either of these alone, is a big ask. To manage them both simultaneously, well empirical evidence strongly suggests that for most rank amateurs, it is nearly impossible.

It saddens me to think of how much thought I gave to my various body parts and what they were doing during the swing, in contrast to how little I thought about what the entire club--grip, shaft, head, face and all--was doing.

Now I am forcing myself to study and understand the motion of the club in theoretical 3-D space, i.e. what the club would look like if it were somehow disembodied, or swung by an invisible ghost (who's a scratch or better golfer). That is sort of my model now, and I'm trying to build around that concept.
no more polo shirts

User avatar
jfurr
Posts: 2465
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2014 10:37 am
Location: South Carolina
Contact:

Re: Perception of the golf swing

Post by jfurr » Sat Aug 01, 2015 6:25 pm

I know what you are saying

I've considered rigging up an overhead camera angle for video. I think it would be very revealing. Somehow get a video camera directly above while on the range , perhaps on a light truss stand. Think of what the paths would look like from there.
I'm gonna hit a provisional
HCP Index :facepalm

User avatar
legitimatebeef
Posts: 4524
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2015 7:34 pm
Location: island off the coast of america
dogs: 1
Contact:

Re: Perception of the golf swing

Post by legitimatebeef » Sat Aug 01, 2015 8:19 pm

jfurr wrote:I know what you are saying

I've considered rigging up an overhead camera angle for video. I think it would be very revealing. Somehow get a video camera directly above while on the range , perhaps on a light truss stand. Think of what the paths would look like from there.
YES

That is actually something I have sought out.
no more polo shirts

User avatar
GBOGEY
Posts: 492
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2014 8:22 pm
Contact:

Re: Perception of the golf swing

Post by GBOGEY » Mon Aug 03, 2015 9:05 am

With all due respect, I think you may be thinking too much. Some advice given to me recently - "You have good impact position. Stop thinking and just swing the club."

User avatar
jasonfish11
Posts: 2506
Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2014 9:27 pm
Location: Virginia Beach
dogs: 2
Contact:

Re: Perception of the golf swing

Post by jasonfish11 » Mon Aug 03, 2015 10:02 am

This is why I'm scared to video my swing. But I feel like I've leveled out at a 10 handicap. I know I could get to mid single digits if I can find more fairways with driver. But I'm coming to the conclusion my swing is too timing based to achieve consistency. My swing can go from looking like a scratch golfer one week to a 25 handicap the next.

In the next month or 2 I'm ordering some type of tripod-esq device to hold my phone or camera (preferably camera as it has better high speed video) so I can film my swing. I am scared at what I will see.
This is not burger king you can not have it your way.

User avatar
legitimatebeef
Posts: 4524
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2015 7:34 pm
Location: island off the coast of america
dogs: 1
Contact:

Re: Perception of the golf swing

Post by legitimatebeef » Mon Aug 03, 2015 11:14 am

GBOGEY wrote:With all due respect, I think you may be thinking too much. Some advice given to me recently - "You have good impact position. Stop thinking and just swing the club."
With all due respect, no! How else can I take my golfing game to the next level? There is a reason why recreational players tend to reach a plateau quite early in their journey. They don't understand quite enough about the motion of the club and don't really bother seeking out a better understanding of it. It has to be this. Because the actual physicality demanded by a top-notch golf swing, is not all that much. While it demands precision and balance, it's more or less a turn back and turn through movement. We are not talking about pole vaulting or Olympic gymnastics here.

Speaking of impact position. That is what clued me into my own problems. My impact position was hideous. And that is most likely why my game hit that ceiling, like almost every other rank amateur's. I was performing a lot of compensations to deliver the club at the ball cleanly. A couple months ago I was in a slow round and I guess my compensations were way off that day and twice I buried the club behind the ball, and barely dribbled it out of the tee box. That was a wakeup call. I had been feeling good about how I was hitting at the range at the time.

Anyways, you cannot say I am thinking too much. Because my swing is improving and so is my handicap, plus I am actually enjoying this voyage of golf swing discovery, so why not. The golf swing on the surface seems simple, and in some senses it is quite simple. But it is also a deep mystery that eludes so many.

Time will prove everything. Thanks for the input GB.
no more polo shirts

User avatar
legitimatebeef
Posts: 4524
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2015 7:34 pm
Location: island off the coast of america
dogs: 1
Contact:

Re: Perception of the golf swing

Post by legitimatebeef » Mon Aug 03, 2015 11:29 am

jasonfish11 wrote:This is why I'm scared to video my swing. But I feel like I've leveled out at a 10 handicap. I know I could get to mid single digits if I can find more fairways with driver. But I'm coming to the conclusion my swing is too timing based to achieve consistency. My swing can go from looking like a scratch golfer one week to a 25 handicap the next.

In the next month or 2 I'm ordering some type of tripod-esq device to hold my phone or camera (preferably camera as it has better high speed video) so I can film my swing. I am scared at what I will see.
Dude, you have some lofty goals. So you have to look at your swing with a cold, critical eye IMO. All the more so if you feel like your game has leveled out. It is the only way. Unless you don't mind hitting a few hundred range balls everyday to perfect your compensations.
no more polo shirts

User avatar
jasonfish11
Posts: 2506
Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2014 9:27 pm
Location: Virginia Beach
dogs: 2
Contact:

Re: Perception of the golf swing

Post by jasonfish11 » Mon Aug 03, 2015 11:34 am

legitimatebeef wrote: Dude, you have some lofty goals. So you have to look at your swing with a cold, critical eye IMO.
I know. It is on my to-do list, but there are numerous things ahead of it that take precedence over golf.

When I get a video of my swing made I'll post it here so I can get some objective advice.
This is not burger king you can not have it your way.

User avatar
legitimatebeef
Posts: 4524
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2015 7:34 pm
Location: island off the coast of america
dogs: 1
Contact:

Re: Perception of the golf swing

Post by legitimatebeef » Mon Aug 03, 2015 12:23 pm

jasonfish11 wrote:
legitimatebeef wrote: Dude, you have some lofty goals. So you have to look at your swing with a cold, critical eye IMO.
I know. It is on my to-do list, but there are numerous things ahead of it that take precedence over golf.

When I get a video of my swing made I'll post it here so I can get some objective advice.
Jason. We all know that recreational golf is way down on the list of "actual life priorities". But examining and studying the swing is not about committing huge chunks of your time necessarily. For me the tough part is the humbling, the swallowing of pride, the confronting of mental shortcomings and stubborn thinking and what not. The abandoning of ideas that I once swore were sound. Admitting that I have wasted time and energy going down wrong paths. Admission of failure basically. That is tough to swallow.

Scrutinize your swing, kind of like Brandel Chamblee does to Tiger Woods's. Work on moves in your spare moments at home, then drop by the range for a few minutes and hit a handful of balls to ingrain this or that, and then carry on with life. I think you have to be satisfied with a slow, incremental progress, like the proverbial farm boy who lifted the calf everyday and before he knew it was lifting a full grown cattle. This might not be good advice for anyone else, but I wish that somebody had urged me in this way early on in my golfing. Trying to heap too much progress at once probably results in regression more often than not.

If you want to say buzz off to any or all of this advice that is cool too. I am just kind of thinking out loud.
no more polo shirts

User avatar
jasonfish11
Posts: 2506
Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2014 9:27 pm
Location: Virginia Beach
dogs: 2
Contact:

Re: Perception of the golf swing

Post by jasonfish11 » Mon Aug 03, 2015 12:49 pm

I know the time it takes to video your swing it is next to nothing. My constraints are due to moving into a new house. I dont see a point in spending much time on this right now when I'm going to take the better part of a month off to move into our house. I'd rather start fresh after that is over.

As far as accepting change that isn't hard for me to do. I generally have always had the mindset that the only consent is change, so looking at my swing critically and saying "ok that isn't what I should be doing, how do I fix it" isn't really a tough hurdle. I do not generally have a problem dismantling and resembling something like my golf swing if I feel it will help in the long run.

But I do agree with you that most of these things can't really just be learned or unlearned. You basically have to blow up your current process and rebuild it from the ground up. It sounds like you are leveling a house just to remodel the kitchen, but for a golf swing I agree with you that is the best practice.

Also I think September is the best time for me to start a complete re haul of my game. It will start getting cooler in the mornings and I'll be able to hit full shots before going to work with out being dripping in sweat. I am looking at the next 2 weeks and not seeing a single day with low enough temps or humidity to be able to hit full shots prior to going to work. So hopefully my short game will get improved over these weeks.
This is not burger king you can not have it your way.

User avatar
jasonfish11
Posts: 2506
Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2014 9:27 pm
Location: Virginia Beach
dogs: 2
Contact:

Re: Perception of the golf swing

Post by jasonfish11 » Mon Aug 03, 2015 12:56 pm

Maybe what I'll do is attempt to describe what I think is going on in my golf swing before making a video of it.

There may be some other benefit to this that I haven't thought of, but if nothing else you all will be able to point and laugh at me with how wrong I expect to be :lol:
This is not burger king you can not have it your way.

User avatar
legitimatebeef
Posts: 4524
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2015 7:34 pm
Location: island off the coast of america
dogs: 1
Contact:

Re: Perception of the golf swing

Post by legitimatebeef » Mon Aug 03, 2015 12:59 pm

jasonfish11 wrote:Maybe what I'll do is attempt to describe what I think is going on in my golf swing before making a video of it.

There may be some other benefit to this that I haven't thought of, but if nothing else you all will be able to point and laugh at me with how wrong I expect to be :lol:
I actually like that a lot. Way better than posting your swing video and being like, "so, let me hear your suggestions" which to me seems a bad idea.
no more polo shirts

User avatar
jasonfish11
Posts: 2506
Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2014 9:27 pm
Location: Virginia Beach
dogs: 2
Contact:

Re: Perception of the golf swing

Post by jasonfish11 » Mon Aug 03, 2015 1:22 pm

legitimatebeef wrote: I actually like that a lot. Way better than posting your swing video and being like, "so, let me hear your suggestions" which to me seems a bad idea.
I also dont think it is normally a great idea to take internet advice from random people. But it is a small group here and I'm pretty much a skeptic as it is, so I dont feel that I'd get and act on a lot of advice that would set me back. I think the potential positive of someone else pointing out a flaw I dont see outweighs the possibility of both getting and acting on bad advice.

I would never post my swing and ask for advice on a broader spectrum, because I wouldn't know much about the majority of people offering "help". But feel comfortable that most (if not all) of the posters on here could provide decent advice at worst.
This is not burger king you can not have it your way.

User avatar
legitimatebeef
Posts: 4524
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2015 7:34 pm
Location: island off the coast of america
dogs: 1
Contact:

Re: Perception of the golf swing

Post by legitimatebeef » Mon Aug 03, 2015 1:39 pm

Maybe I have gone off a deep end of New Agey self-help quackery and pseudoscience, but I am thinking that golf instruction should more resemble high-priced psychotherapy, in which the "doctor" does little more than sit there and get you to talk out your problems. "So, how does that make you feel?"
no more polo shirts

User avatar
jasonfish11
Posts: 2506
Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2014 9:27 pm
Location: Virginia Beach
dogs: 2
Contact:

Re: Perception of the golf swing

Post by jasonfish11 » Mon Aug 03, 2015 1:43 pm

Either way. We can have some fun at my expense.

I'll plan on getting my swing on video early/mid September, and a couple days before I'll try to narrate what I think is going on. I expect there to be quite a difference.
This is not burger king you can not have it your way.

User avatar
legitimatebeef
Posts: 4524
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2015 7:34 pm
Location: island off the coast of america
dogs: 1
Contact:

Re: Perception of the golf swing

Post by legitimatebeef » Mon Aug 03, 2015 1:44 pm

I can hardly wait.
no more polo shirts

User avatar
bryan k
Posts: 817
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2014 2:07 pm
Contact:

Re: Perception of the golf swing

Post by bryan k » Mon Aug 03, 2015 8:10 pm

I posted my golf swing a couple of times on oobgolf. Someone broke it down for me pretty good and fixed a couple of flaws. I was rotating my hips backward in my backswing, for instance. It was generating a lot of power, but I was having a very difficult time getting those hips back square again at impact.

These days, most of my swing "fixes" are high caliber fine-tuning. I found a golf instructor I really like. I'm still working on the four things he showed me last Spring, and I'm quite amazed at how closely they are all tied together. I diagnosed the problem with my swing as being an over-the-top problem, and I was correct. However, I couldn't fix it. So I went to the expert. He said it was a weight shift problem. Okay, great. Except now that I'm concentrating on my weight shift, I still can't get it right sometimes. The ball still flies off to the right, and because I'm so scared of that, I'm afraid of driving into the ball. He had me look at my wrist angle on my backswing. So I stopped cupping my wrist and implemented a more closed clubface on my backswing. Great. Now I'm digging into the ground and hitting everything fat. He had me check my shoulder alignment. It felt natural to leave my front shoulder slightly higher than my back shoulder. By consciously lowering my front shoulder and raising my back shoulder at address, I didn't hit fat anymore. That means I don't have to "early extend" to avoid hitting the ball fat. I can stay down through impact. When I can remember all four of those things, it's a beautiful picture. If I forget any one of those four things, all four tend to creep back up on me. It's a chain reaction, and according to my instructor, it's extremely common.

User avatar
legitimatebeef
Posts: 4524
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2015 7:34 pm
Location: island off the coast of america
dogs: 1
Contact:

Re: Perception of the golf swing

Post by legitimatebeef » Tue Aug 04, 2015 5:27 pm

I want to talk about the perception of the release.

In my old perception, the release happened well after the ball. So essentially I was trying to drag the whole clubface through impact without releasing it. That's in part why I instinctively took a long backswing. I needed it to generate speed I was losing by not releasing earlier in the swing.

Now I am trying to release the whole works, have the forearms crossing over much closer to impact. Like, at impact.
no more polo shirts

User avatar
bryan k
Posts: 817
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2014 2:07 pm
Contact:

Re: Perception of the golf swing

Post by bryan k » Tue Aug 04, 2015 10:42 pm

Interestingly, all of the golf pros I've worked with have all told me that release is something that should happen naturally. In order for it to happen properly, we need to ensure that everything that comes before it is correct.

User avatar
legitimatebeef
Posts: 4524
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2015 7:34 pm
Location: island off the coast of america
dogs: 1
Contact:

Re: Perception of the golf swing

Post by legitimatebeef » Wed Aug 05, 2015 1:23 am

bryan k wrote:Interestingly, all of the golf pros I've worked with have all told me that release is something that should happen naturally. In order for it to happen properly, we need to ensure that everything that comes before it is correct.
The release happens in everyone's full swing. It's just a question of when. I was releasing, but way after impact. I am changing the entire physics of the club in my swing, and again my whole perception of what the club's doing throughout the swing.
no more polo shirts

User avatar
jfurr
Posts: 2465
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2014 10:37 am
Location: South Carolina
Contact:

Re: Perception of the golf swing

Post by jfurr » Wed Aug 05, 2015 9:11 am

If I "try" to release I get a snap hook / hosel top etc. Suppose I have more of a hold-late release swing.
I'm gonna hit a provisional
HCP Index :facepalm

User avatar
legitimatebeef
Posts: 4524
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2015 7:34 pm
Location: island off the coast of america
dogs: 1
Contact:

Re: Perception of the golf swing

Post by legitimatebeef » Tue Aug 25, 2015 4:49 pm

The golf swing is a simple body movement. So f'n simple. Just back and through. That's it, that's all it is. Why does it end up being so extremely difficult to perform well? I keep coming back to perception. The more I search for the ideal swing plane, the more I discover the basicness and simplicity of it. There isn't really much fancy going on. So the problem for me at least, has to be rooted in faulty perception, has to be.

Now when I train my swing I feel it is mainly my mind that is being worked on. Letting the club swing, and releasing through impact, this is all so new. Again making the actual good swing is not very physically demanding at all, and it's actually easier than before, but still it's a struggle to adopt this new thing as mine. To stand over the ball and be able to perceive the correct action, before even taking the club back, that's like more than half the battle isn't it. I've made so many erroneous swings in my life, like tens of thousands probably. That is a lot of mess to clean up, mentally. I need some hypnotherapy.
no more polo shirts

User avatar
Duke of Hazards
Posts: 1077
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2015 2:29 am
Location: Orange, CA
Contact:

Re: Perception of the golf swing

Post by Duke of Hazards » Tue Aug 25, 2015 5:29 pm

It took me a long time to realize that the quality of my golf swing is 90% predetermined at address.

Grip
Posture
Balance

What happens after that is muscle memory.

However, the side benefit of hitting tens of thousands of balls is that you get better at compensating and 'saving' the shot if you do start with a poor setup, producing an acceptable result.

User avatar
legitimatebeef
Posts: 4524
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2015 7:34 pm
Location: island off the coast of america
dogs: 1
Contact:

Re: Perception of the golf swing

Post by legitimatebeef » Wed Aug 26, 2015 2:26 pm

Golf swing is so simple, so stupidly simple. Apologies for belaboring the point, but when you realize that most of your golf-life until now has been a sham, you've been living in the dark, what else can you do.

It is not just me. How many other golf-lives have been wasted similarly? I think I may have discovered the answer to the question "Why do golfers suck?"--it is because we are stupid, that's why.
no more polo shirts

User avatar
jfurr
Posts: 2465
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2014 10:37 am
Location: South Carolina
Contact:

Re: Perception of the golf swing

Post by jfurr » Wed Aug 26, 2015 10:16 pm

timing, balance, tempo, flexibility, strength, mental composure, mental and physical stamina, perception, vision, consistency, coordination, dedication to practice, natural giftedness

like dancing -- looks easy until you actually try it...
I'm gonna hit a provisional
HCP Index :facepalm

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests