Perception of the golf swing

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legitimatebeef
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Re: Perception of the golf swing

Post by legitimatebeef » Thu Aug 27, 2015 12:38 pm

jfurr wrote:timing, balance, tempo, flexibility, strength, mental composure, mental and physical stamina, perception, vision, consistency, coordination, dedication to practice, natural giftedness
If you break it down enough, taking a successful shit is a pretty tall order. You could argue it demands balance, flexibility, concentration, hand-eye coordination, etc, etc. And arguably it is a challenge for some people. But not for healthy strong mobile people such as ourselves. Compared to a lot of sports actions golf swing is not that complicated or strenuous. Not compared to connecting with a fastball, throwing a breaking ball for a strike, serving an ace down the T, landing a triple axel on skates, or even a single f'n axel. Pole vaulting. Even throwing a good football pass I think is more challenging than making a full golf swing.

No, the sooner you accept that the golf swing is simple, that there might be some fundamental, perhaps boneheaded, misunderstanding that's leading you astray, the sooner you can find the road to recovery. In my humble opinion of course. This is just what I am currently going through.
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Re: Perception of the golf swing

Post by bryan k » Fri Aug 28, 2015 11:55 pm

Duke of Hazards wrote:It took me a long time to realize that the quality of my golf swing is 90% predetermined at address.

Grip
Posture
Balance

What happens after that is muscle memory.

However, the side benefit of hitting tens of thousands of balls is that you get better at compensating and 'saving' the shot if you do start with a poor setup, producing an acceptable result.
Those acceptable results end up causing bad habits, though.

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Re: Perception of the golf swing

Post by bryan k » Sat Aug 29, 2015 12:02 am

There are really two key points to my golf swing right now that cause problems. Doing these two things incorrectly causes other things to go wrong.

I've talked about both of these things on this forum to death, too.

The first is wrist angle on the backswing. If I cup my wrist too much, the ball slices. If I don't cup my wrist enough, the ball hooks. The key is finding the right wrist angle. My swing tends to be a back and forth shift between too much cup and not enough cup, and I firmly believe that given enough time, I will get better and better at this.

The second is weight shift. This has me frustrated beyond description right now. Fundamentally, I know what a correct weight shift feels like. I can rattle off 100 practice swings and do it correctly 95 times. When I step up to the ball, something happens. It's like I'm scared to step into the ball when I know that the ball is actually going to go somewhere once I make contact. It's counter-intuitive. When my weight stays on my back foot too long, my pivot ends up being on the back foot. That creates a sweeping over-the-top motion at the back of my swing. The correction is to step into the swing before the backswing even begins. This moves the pivot forward and promotes the club staying inside the swing plane until contact is made. But it's counter-intuitive because it *feels* like stepping into the ball is going to create more of an outside-in swing path. It's 100% psychological, and the only fallback I have is that I witness the vast majority of all amateur golfers I play with doing the exact same thing. In fact, it's gotten to the point where I can tell on the first tee whether or not a playing partner has a lower handicap than I based on whether they are doing this simple thing correctly. And I know that my handicap is as low as it will ever get until I fix this basic, fundamental flaw.

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Re: Perception of the golf swing

Post by legitimatebeef » Sun Aug 30, 2015 2:15 pm

bryan k wrote:The second is weight shift. This has me frustrated beyond description right now. Fundamentally, I know what a correct weight shift feels like. I can rattle off 100 practice swings and do it correctly 95 times. When I step up to the ball, something happens.
That's why the range exists I think. The body acts/re-acts so different when there's a ball. Hard to simulate that. Personally I am at the point where practice swings no longer help me. I need the ball. Actually I think making too many practice swings with no ball sometimes leads me astray.

About the weight shift, do you ever try to start the downswing by sliding hip laterally toward the target?
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Re: Perception of the golf swing

Post by Duke of Hazards » Tue Sep 01, 2015 1:43 pm

bryan k wrote:
Duke of Hazards wrote:It took me a long time to realize that the quality of my golf swing is 90% predetermined at address.

Grip
Posture
Balance

What happens after that is muscle memory.

However, the side benefit of hitting tens of thousands of balls is that you get better at compensating and 'saving' the shot if you do start with a poor setup, producing an acceptable result.
Those acceptable results end up causing bad habits, though.
Maybe I need to clarify. After hitting thousands of balls, when you play like shit, you score bogeys and doubles instead of 9's and 10's. It's still highly unsatisfactory to end a round having hit the ball poorly, but at least your score is double digits instead of triple. Then you go back to the range and pound more balls.
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Re: Perception of the golf swing

Post by brianmk24 » Thu Oct 22, 2015 12:10 am

legitimatebeef wrote:The golf swing is a simple body movement. So f'n simple. Just back and through. That's it, that's all it is. Why does it end up being so extremely difficult to perform well? I keep coming back to perception. The more I search for the ideal swing plane, the more I discover the basicness and simplicity of it. There isn't really much fancy going on. So the problem for me at least, has to be rooted in faulty perception, has to be.

Now when I train my swing I feel it is mainly my mind that is being worked on. Letting the club swing, and releasing through impact, this is all so new. Again making the actual good swing is not very physically demanding at all, and it's actually easier than before, but still it's a struggle to adopt this new thing as mine. To stand over the ball and be able to perceive the correct action, before even taking the club back, that's like more than half the battle isn't it. I've made so many erroneous swings in my life, like tens of thousands probably. That is a lot of mess to clean up, mentally. I need some hypnotherapy.
It's not a mirror image of back and through or else I'd have been good at this game a long time ago.

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Re: Perception of the golf swing

Post by legitimatebeef » Thu Oct 22, 2015 12:06 pm

brianmk24 wrote:
legitimatebeef wrote:The golf swing is a simple body movement. So f'n simple. Just back and through. That's it, that's all it is. Why does it end up being so extremely difficult to perform well? I keep coming back to perception. The more I search for the ideal swing plane, the more I discover the basicness and simplicity of it. There isn't really much fancy going on. So the problem for me at least, has to be rooted in faulty perception, has to be.

Now when I train my swing I feel it is mainly my mind that is being worked on. Letting the club swing, and releasing through impact, this is all so new. Again making the actual good swing is not very physically demanding at all, and it's actually easier than before, but still it's a struggle to adopt this new thing as mine. To stand over the ball and be able to perceive the correct action, before even taking the club back, that's like more than half the battle isn't it. I've made so many erroneous swings in my life, like tens of thousands probably. That is a lot of mess to clean up, mentally. I need some hypnotherapy.
It's not a mirror image of back and through or else I'd have been good at this game a long time ago.
It IS simple, muchacho. If you break it down frame by frame and try to build it back up again, you can argue that it is complex. But what are some truly complex, physically difficult moves? Ballet, pole vaulting, doing a kick flip on a skateboard. Playing most musical instruments. You can't luck into these things. Sometimes though, you take the golf club back, turn through and BOOM, something magic happens.

Not saying in practice that it is as easy as "turn back, turn through". Of course you have to fine tune the reflexes to work the club in just the right arc. The grip has to be set in a way that aligns with the arc of your particular swing. Of course the operation of the club is a bit involved and the physical margins for error are small. But what the body is doing, not complicated. You can't look at a swing like say Boo Weekley and describe the whole thing as a complex movement.

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Re: Perception of the golf swing

Post by Coda1850 » Thu Oct 22, 2015 1:21 pm

[/quote]

That couldn't look any easier.
Kinda makes me laugh & get pissed @ the same time. Why can't I just do that?

...that driver just go 290 yards? He swung like he was hitting it 60 yards.
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Re: Perception of the golf swing

Post by jasonfish11 » Sun Nov 08, 2015 10:07 am

So I made promises to do this earlier but too bad. I'm going to video my swing on the range before my round today and will not be looking at it/editing it before Monday at the earliest. But wanted to get my thoughts on what I expect down earlier than the video time stamp so none of you can claim I viewed the video first in the off chance perception = reality. lol

Here are my expectations. I'm going to try to hit 3 balls DTL and front on with mid irons and driver. (12 balls total) on video. I haven't decided yet if I'm going to edit it down to 1 shot or not.

But my expectations:
Driver - I expect to see a very long swing. Club head well past parallel but not as bad as Daly. I expect some cupping of my left wrist at the top of the backswing although I hope it isn't that bad. I also have a feeling my shoulders and hips aren't lined up parallel although I'm not sure if this is true or not. I'm hoping that the club isn't laid off at the top but have a feeling due to the over swing and possibly cupped left wrist it is.

I'm probably bringing it back a little on the inside which is getting me in these positions.

Those are the issues I've been "working" on. Although I try to work on 1 thing at a time.

My shots usually result in a push at best and a block slice at worst. I think there is some combination of the above factors which is causing an over the top swing but haven't been able to pin point it easily.

Iron - I have tried to really cut back my iron swing which has helped. I expect some of the same issues, other than the swing being too long.

I also to see very little movement in my head. I've been working on keeping my head still through the swing with a thought of having a cup of water on my head while swinging. For some reason I haven't tried this with my driver.

There might be a slight early release but I dont worry too much about that.

For the sake of argument lets assume I dont expect to see any other flaws (ie early extension, lateral sway, ect.) because the above things are the main issues I feel like I have. There might be other things, but nothing I'm "working on" other than what I've mentioned.

I'll post the videos when I'm done editing. I have a camera that does really good slow mo so each swing sequence might be broken down into about 10-15 seconds if all goes well (I've never tried editing video). But the editing stuff may take me a while given I'm so new to it. If anyone wants the results quickly and is good with editing I'll be glad to send you the raw videos lol.
Keep it short stupid.

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Re: Perception of the golf swing

Post by jasonfish11 » Sun Nov 08, 2015 5:09 pm

Oh god. I'm amazed I got to a 10 handicap with this swing.
Keep it short stupid.

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Re: Perception of the golf swing

Post by jasonfish11 » Sun Nov 08, 2015 7:04 pm

I do see why people have said I look like Keegan Bradley though.

John Daly's backswing is short lol. I'll try to edit this tonight and post a link. Camera work was sub par.
Keep it short stupid.

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Re: Perception of the golf swing

Post by legitimatebeef » Sun Nov 08, 2015 8:06 pm

jasonfish11 wrote:Oh god. I'm amazed I got to a 10 handicap with this swing.
I give you props for taking the hard look in the mirror. I think regardless of one's ultimate goals, it's best to be realistic about What's Actually Going On.
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Re: Perception of the golf swing

Post by jasonfish11 » Sun Nov 08, 2015 9:35 pm

[youtube]
[/youtube]

See if this worked.

Should be a DTL and Face on of both 7i and driver.

To be fair the swings weren't the best. I was worried about making a video and not swinging a golf club. But that really is not justification for the terrible posture, massive overswing, hip sway, head movement, and god knows what else I can't see due to the poor camera work.
Keep it short stupid.

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Re: Perception of the golf swing

Post by MattF » Mon Nov 09, 2015 6:13 am

I can't get over the over swing, that's massive! I swing to about 3/4 maybe a hair more...you look like you're almost in the takeaway position at the top of your swing.
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Re: Perception of the golf swing

Post by jasonfish11 » Mon Nov 09, 2015 6:24 am

Yeah I've always done that but never thought it got that bad.

Thought I was close to parallel with irons. Lol
Keep it short stupid.

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Re: Perception of the golf swing

Post by jasonfish11 » Mon Nov 09, 2015 7:19 am

OK so this confirmed my next house project.

I'm building a hitting bay in my garage. I can probably build it for less than $500 assuming I spring for a good $200+ mat. This will allow me to get and analyze more swings on video.

Also my garage is fully insulated so it won't get too cold. It just isn't high enough to hit anything other than irons.
Keep it short stupid.

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Re: Perception of the golf swing

Post by GBOGEY » Mon Nov 09, 2015 8:40 am

jasonfish11 wrote:I do see why people have said I look like Keegan Bradley though.

John Daly's backswing is short lol. I'll try to edit this tonight and post a link. Camera work was sub par.
The good news is that you must have good athletic ability / hand-eye coordination to be a 10 with your swing.

How tall are you?

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Re: Perception of the golf swing

Post by jasonfish11 » Mon Nov 09, 2015 8:56 am

I'm 6' even. I was a 10. I don't have a real handicap now, but my guess is I'm closer to a 14. Game golf has me at a 9 but that will change when I enter this new round. Also I didn't have the thing charged for a couple bad rounds. I really dont care about tracking my handicap because I dont play tournaments. I will have a true handicap next year because I am going to join golf week am tour, but I will start as a 10 where my last "real" handicap was and let it go up, as I dont expect next year to be a good one given the obvious swing changes I'll be making.

I'm amazed I am not more inconsistent now that I'm looking at it. I am also amazed my left arm doesn't break down sooner than it does. I can get the club to about 4:30 with my left arm straight. So at least I know I have a good shoulder turn lol.
Keep it short stupid.

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Re: Perception of the golf swing

Post by legitimatebeef » Mon Nov 09, 2015 11:07 am

jasonfish11 wrote:Yeah I've always done that but never thought it got that bad.

Thought I was close to parallel with irons. Lol
It's a little long. Can't you see the clubhead out of the corner of your left eye? Or did you just think that's what parallel looked like?
jasonfish11 wrote:OK so this confirmed my next house project.

I'm building a hitting bay in my garage. I can probably build it for less than $500 assuming I spring for a good $200+ mat. This will allow me to get and analyze more swings on video.

Also my garage is fully insulated so it won't get too cold. It just isn't high enough to hit anything other than irons.
Nice. I am jealous. Living in an apartment, chipping wiffle balls up onto the sofa is the best I can do. Hope you can make a nice setup in there, TV, mini-fridge, bong etc.
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Re: Perception of the golf swing

Post by jasonfish11 » Mon Nov 09, 2015 11:20 am

legitimatebeef wrote:
It's a little long. Can't you see the clubhead out of the corner of your left eye? Or did you just think that's what parallel looked like?
Not with my irons. I can with my driver though. Part of me wants to squat really low in my driver swing to see if I can hit the ball backwards off the crown, just for shits and giggles.
legitimatebeef wrote: Nice. I am jealous. Living in an apartment, chipping wiffle balls up onto the sofa is the best I can do. Hope you can make a nice setup in there, TV, mini-fridge, bong etc.
I already told my wife that when launch monitor equipment gets cheaper I'm putting in a launch monitor. So this will just spread the project out. There is a thread on golfwrks where the guy did it well for $2600 and I hope to somewhat copy that. Launch monitor, projector, ect.

Here is the thread.

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/123 ... 8/page__hl__
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Re: Perception of the golf swing

Post by MattF » Mon Nov 09, 2015 12:11 pm

These are really, really good mats http://stores.ebay.com/allturfmats/ I have a small one that I built a stance platform around. You can stick a tee in them and hit down on them as well.

This is the netting that I use http://www.gourock.com/golf.html I can hit driver into it without any issues.
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Re: Perception of the golf swing

Post by jasonfish11 » Mon Nov 09, 2015 12:26 pm

I wont be able to hit driver in my garage. I think it will be iron only in my garage. Unless I raise the ceiling but I dont want to do that much work.
Keep it short stupid.

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Re: Perception of the golf swing

Post by Duke of Hazards » Mon Nov 09, 2015 12:56 pm

That's pretty cool with the golf simulator, Jason. I'd thought about doing that, but where I live, there's no real reason to since it doesn't get cold here, although the ball speed, launch angle stuff would be useful. I think maybe a small portable launch monitor once they get good enough and cheap enough to take to the range.

I would like to video my swing though (I've never done it.) Did you just use your phone and prop it up somehow?
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Re: Perception of the golf swing

Post by jasonfish11 » Mon Nov 09, 2015 2:08 pm

Duke of Hazards wrote: I would like to video my swing though (I've never done it.) Did you just use your phone and prop it up somehow?
All I have to say about my swing is how different it looks than I though. Definitely worth videoing your swing if you really want to get better.

My wife won a go pro knock off from work. Its a kodak something that is about the size of a cell phone. It did pretty good. Actually with the device I was able to slow it down to half the speed I could in the editing software (I wasn't using the software that goes with the camera). The down side is the "viewing screen" is only 2". So it has to be loaded to a comp or TV.
Keep it short stupid.

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Re: Perception of the golf swing

Post by GBOGEY » Mon Nov 09, 2015 3:38 pm

So I've watched about 15 times just to see what I think I see. I'm not an expert, but these are problems that I have had so I am comfortable commenting:

#1. Posture at address is too bent over - need to bend at the hips and keep the back straight. Hands might be too low, although not sure that this matters. Based upon your posture, I'm pretty sure that you are destined to have an overly flat swing. Which leads to:
#2. Your swing is overly flat and I'm pretty sure that you take the club back to the inside on the back swing. Tall guys tend to swing a little flat, think Kuchar or Bradley, but I don't think you are tall enough for this to be the case. A flat swing can be easier to hit if your timing is really good, but if it is off it will lead to inconsistent contact and misses will be both left and right.
#3. Obviously your backswing is way too long. I think I mentioned before when we have commiserated over driver woes that my pro has told me that the overly long back swing causes inconsistent club face and therefore a 2 way miss. He always points to JB Holmes - very short backswing but great power and distance. Making this change has done wonders for my driving with increased distance and accuracy. However, I think you need to address #1 and #2 in order for #3 to have maximum effect.

Again, given what you have shown us, you must have quite good timing / athletic ability to still make good contact although I can understand why you have some blow up rounds.

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