Early Extension

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jfurr
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Early Extension

Post by jfurr » Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:42 pm

When it warms up and I get some time to actually practice, I'm going to put one more try into working on my early extension issue. EE is the killer of my golf swing. It it what takes all confidence away when setting up to the ball. EE makes every swing a crap shoot of results. Playing frustratingly inconsistent golf is no fun as we all know.

Here is one of many theories and fixes for this bastard of a swing problem.

I'm gonna hit a provisional
HCP Index :facepalm

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Re: Early Extension

Post by jfurr » Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:45 pm

Here is another. When I try to do this drill, I literally hit the ground a foot behind the ball with the clubhead. That can be very painful on the wrists.

I'm gonna hit a provisional
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Re: Early Extension

Post by legitimatebeef » Tue Jan 10, 2017 6:32 pm

For my special EE case I had to seek out some inconvenient truths. First I had problems perceiving the correct action of the freakin golf club. If I am not clear on what the club is supposed to do how am I supposed to know how the body is supposed to function?!(@*&@#? It's kind of like I was working off an instruction manual in an alien language, all I could vaguely grasp were the diagrams. Sure I could watch Adam Scott on uTube all day long and try to imitate. But if I am operating on faulty notions, that probably more hurts more than helps. For that kind of golfer like I was, the only thing that could help shoot better scores was a steady diet of range ba11s, essentially just honing my timing and compensations (i.e. EE) whether I realized that's what I'm doing or not. Where I might've been at the range thinking I am working on a swing, what I am really doing is practicing getting my EE just right, to steepen the shaft just so, and stand up at impact just so. Sad!

The other truth I had to beat myself over the head with was that I simply sucked at hip rotation. I have to start from zero. I have to work on that specifically--turning the hips fast through impact while trying to maintain the leg flex and waist bend from address. I am finding that there is less to the golf swing than I originally thought. For me there is no magic move or magic feel. The Way is actually quite simple. The question is am I strong and flexible and athletic enough to move in this specific way? If not, can I get there?

I respect anyone who makes a living teaching golf but I wonder how many of them truly understand suckage. They know the biomechanics of it, but there is the whole experiential aspect. How many of them really know what it's like. How bad have they really suffered in golf.
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Re: Early Extension

Post by legitimatebeef » Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:03 am

Jfurr, what happens when you hit pitch shots?
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Re: Early Extension

Post by jfurr » Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:26 am

legitimatebeef wrote:Jfurr, what happens when you hit pitch shots?
Horrible inconsistency. I blade them over the green, chunk them into bunkers, shank them 45° right....
I'm gonna hit a provisional
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Re: Early Extension

Post by jfurr » Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:28 am

Actually that's chipping more so. I can't really hit pitch shots. If I have a wedge in my hand from 20-60 yards I'm clueless.
I'm gonna hit a provisional
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Re: Early Extension

Post by legitimatebeef » Wed Jan 11, 2017 12:33 pm

jfurr wrote:Actually that's chipping more so. I can't really hit pitch shots. If I have a wedge in my hand from 20-60 yards I'm clueless.
I am not really an advice guy. I consider myself just another wayward soul. But a crucial part of my process has been working on pitch shots. I used to feel lost over them. Pray, hit, and hope situation. I believe I was one of those many sad cases for whom pitching and slower swings exposed swing flaws in a bigly way. Again I could make short game work somewhat--and very sporadically--through timing and muscle memory.

So advice, mine is to start small. Not advocating some kind of "Dan Plan" nonsense where you limit yourself to putts and chips but rather use the small strokes to learn more about the correct big stroke action. My personal belief, and I don't know where the golf instruction community stands on this, is that one should seek unity among all their strokes. Which is just a douchebag way of saying that chips and pitches are smaller versions of the full swing.
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Re: Early Extension

Post by jfurr » Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:54 pm

This is so difficult to do. He's describing my flaw here. I have sometimes called it "fast hips" as well.

https://youtu.be/YSohvwRjS7g
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Re: Early Extension

Post by jasonfish11 » Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:10 pm

jfurr wrote:When it warms up and I get some time to actually practice, I'm going to put one more try into working on my early extension issue. EE is the killer of my golf swing. It it what takes all confidence away when setting up to the ball. EE makes every swing a crap shoot of results. Playing frustratingly inconsistent golf is no fun as we all know.

Here is one of many theories and fixes for this bastard of a swing problem.

https://youtu.be/jRh7gV5QSzw

Making my hip turn deeper had the following benefits for me.

1) Gave me room to shallow out my swing.
2) Increased my iron distance by 10 yards (and that is comparing distances this summer to distances in 35-40* weather, so maybe even more).
This is not burger king you can not have it your way.

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Re: Early Extension

Post by legitimatebeef » Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:16 pm

Jim Waldron has become sort of my guru lately. He posts on wrx quite a bit and through that I've read up on his views. He appears to be a legit pro beyond the online presence, not just some wack job. Anyways one of his assertions is that golf instruction tends to focus too much on body movements and in general focusing on body movement while trying to make good swings is not constructive. to the extent that it's actually destructive--he talks about the flinches that are caused by the conscious mind interfering mid-swing. Beyond being not constructive, it's also just a wrong way to approach the game. I realize I'm being selective here to confirm my own ideas. I can say that I have been experiencing my own shots in a different way lately, and that I believe there is a higher plane of shotmaking that exists above this contemporary body-fixated approach to learning golf.

It probably sounds like a new agey deal. Just close your eyes, let go and a great swing will magically just... seep out of you or something. I don't think that's it. I think the idea is that yes, there is such thing as a mechanically solid swing, but your body can only deliver it if your mind is set on the right objective. The right objective of a golf shot, as I am starting to see it, is more like: deliver the appropriate energy to the ball that'll get it to the target.

This thread offers some good food for thought. Please check out if only to humor the beefster.

Don't wanna hijack the thread or anything, just offering this in response to those EE videos which I noticed are all highly body- movement oriented.
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Re: Early Extension

Post by jfurr » Thu Jan 12, 2017 2:36 pm

I just re-read a two year old thread of mine here where I was discovering, suffering from, and trying to fix my EE problem. I can see it plain as day in my old swing photos and videos. It's just hard to stop doing a motion which is so cemented in my patterns.

Going to the range either today after work or tomorrow, or both. New plan (based on one of the many videos I have watched) is to combat the problem right hip spinning/moving forward from the top of my swing with opposite - shoving left hip back and towards target hard as I can do it. Hopefully this will freeze that pesky right hip to stop the EE and I can get club down in front and not blocked, and hopefully not straight down into the sod behind the ball.
I'm gonna hit a provisional
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Re: Early Extension

Post by Duke of Hazards » Thu Jan 12, 2017 6:56 pm

I'll throw in my 2c here. I've sufferred from early extension as well. I must've posted this before, because I feel like I'm repeating myself, but EE is a result of the body's desire to manufacture clubhead speed by throwing the right side at the ball, when a full turn hasn't been achieved.

I think a lot of amateurs play a lot of golf with a partial turn. It can be done and there are probably scratch golfers and maybe a few pros that have been able to score well with a golf swing that only has a partial turn. I don't think it's ideal however. Meaning that a full turn is going to be a much better biomechanically efficient way to strike the ball, primarily because it leverages the use of the bigger muscles in the body to generate force through the feet into the ground. This affects both the clubhead speed (i.e. distance) and the quality of the strike (specifically, down and through the ball). There was some kind of study they did that showed how much more force is exerted through the bottom of the foot by pros vs. amateurs. I believe that this is also likely an analogue for 'full' vs 'partial' turn.

A proper full turn is kind of hard to do, though. It requires the proper setup, grip, balance, tension in all the right places, etc etc, and all of these variables stacked on top of physical variables (your body's individual characteristics - arm/torso/leg ratio, individual anatomic anomalies, muscle elasticity, health, injuries). We're not all built the same nor are we individually the same all the time. A golfer that puts on 30 lbs would have to make adjustments. And the method for achieving the full turn has changed in the modern era, from the long languid backswing and lifted left heels of Sam Snead and Arnold Palmer to the planted in concrete swings of Gary Woodland and Jason Day.

I think a lot of times, golfers feel like they're completing a full turn, but they're really not. They might do it once in a while and hit a magnificent shot, but then it starts to get away from them. They start focusing on other things/fixes, etc. Then they happen on it again and hit some great shots for a small period. I know, because I've done it and keep doing it.

Everybody is built differently and I think that makes it hard to have universal swing advice. Every person's swing journey is unique.

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Re: Early Extension

Post by jfurr » Thu Jan 12, 2017 7:00 pm

Tonight my journey took me to the range where I fatted almost an entire bucket. So frustrating.
I'm gonna hit a provisional
HCP Index :facepalm

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Re: Early Extension

Post by jfurr » Sun Jan 15, 2017 10:47 pm

So what is the most nerdy golf swing thing one can do? Answer - talk about golf swing with your spouse. Right?

So I revealed to my very patient and awesome spouse my latest "aha" moment about the swing. And Really - this one is big, she was like "oh yeah obviously"

So like to the untrained non-golf eye this shit is real

I have a totally wrong move in my downswing
I'm gonna hit a provisional
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Re: Early Extension

Post by jfurr » Sun Jan 15, 2017 10:48 pm

7 years to figure this out
I'm gonna hit a provisional
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Re: Early Extension

Post by DougE » Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:06 am

Duke of Hazards wrote:I'll throw in my 2c here. I've sufferred from early extension as well. I must've posted this before, because I feel like I'm repeating myself, but EE is a result of the body's desire to manufacture clubhead speed by throwing the right side at the ball, when a full turn hasn't been achieved.

I think a lot of amateurs play a lot of golf with a partial turn. It can be done and there are probably scratch golfers and maybe a few pros that have been able to score well with a golf swing that only has a partial turn. I don't think it's ideal however. Meaning that a full turn is going to be a much better biomechanically efficient way to strike the ball, primarily because it leverages the use of the bigger muscles in the body to generate force through the feet into the ground. This affects both the clubhead speed (i.e. distance) and the quality of the strike (specifically, down and through the ball). There was some kind of study they did that showed how much more force is exerted through the bottom of the foot by pros vs. amateurs. I believe that this is also likely an analogue for 'full' vs 'partial' turn.

A proper full turn is kind of hard to do, though. It requires the proper setup, grip, balance, tension in all the right places, etc etc, and all of these variables stacked on top of physical variables (your body's individual characteristics - arm/torso/leg ratio, individual anatomic anomalies, muscle elasticity, health, injuries). We're not all built the same nor are we individually the same all the time. A golfer that puts on 30 lbs would have to make adjustments. And the method for achieving the full turn has changed in the modern era, from the long languid backswing and lifted left heels of Sam Snead and Arnold Palmer to the planted in concrete swings of Gary Woodland and Jason Day.

I think a lot of times, golfers feel like they're completing a full turn, but they're really not. They might do it once in a while and hit a magnificent shot, but then it starts to get away from them. They start focusing on other things/fixes, etc. Then they happen on it again and hit some great shots for a small period. I know, because I've done it and keep doing it.

Everybody is built differently and I think that makes it hard to have universal swing advice. Every person's swing journey is unique.
I gotta say Duke, that was very insightful, and I believe, very true. Right on the money in my opinion.

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Re: Early Extension

Post by Duke of Hazards » Mon Jan 16, 2017 9:58 am

Thanks Doug.

John, so what was your 'aha' realization?

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Re: Early Extension

Post by jfurr » Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:23 am

When I start the downswing my right hip incorrectly moves towards the ball. It needs to stay put and instead the left hip needs to go away from the ball. Would be easier to demonstrate than describe.
I'm gonna hit a provisional
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Re: Early Extension

Post by jfurr » Tue Jan 17, 2017 2:18 pm

Here is a golfer asking for tips on his swing - this is the hip spin out move I'm stuck with also. I really see a resemblance in this kids swing and mine. The dudes in the blue pants though, I'm not so sure I like this drill they describe. I think they miss the mark on the fix.




The fix on my mind, is more like this move (less emphasis on the Tiger squat, but that's the sequence and direction I'm talking about.




Also, I reread (okay, skimmed...) Hogan's five lessons, and as specific as he is on the swing moves, he didn't drive home or illustrate this either. In fact there is one illustration showing the right hip definitely making a spin move.
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Re: Early Extension

Post by legitimatebeef » Wed Jan 18, 2017 11:25 am

Jfurr, how about trying to let the club swing you for a change? All this talk about what your body is doing, but what about the club? It has needs too. It also needs to move in a certain way in order to achieve a good strike. Alls I am saying, is why not take a backseat, and let the motion of the club take priority for once?
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Re: Early Extension

Post by jasonfish11 » Wed Jan 18, 2017 11:46 am

legitimatebeef wrote:Jfurr, how about trying to let the club swing you for a change? All this talk about what your body is doing, but what about the club? It has needs too. It also needs to move in a certain way in order to achieve a good strike. Alls I am saying, is why not take a backseat, and let the motion of the club take priority for once?
Why do I always feel like Norway.

I feel like you need to be thinking of both.

If you just think of what the body is doing you lose sight of the goal (hitting the ball into the hole). If you just think of the club you lose sight that the club's potential energy can only become kinetic energy if acted upon by an outside force (ie your muscles & body).
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Re: Early Extension

Post by jasonfish11 » Wed Jan 18, 2017 11:50 am

Its just root cause analysis.

Why did you hit a crappy shot?
Because the ball didn't do what you wanted it to.
Why didn't the ball do what you wanted?
Because the club didn't hit the ball the way you wanted it to.
Why didn't the club do what you wanted?
Because my body motions didn't deliver the club effectively.
This is not burger king you can not have it your way.

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Re: Early Extension

Post by Duke of Hazards » Wed Jan 18, 2017 1:35 pm

Image

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Re: Early Extension

Post by jfurr » Wed Jan 18, 2017 4:52 pm

legitimatebeef wrote:Jfurr, how about trying to let the club swing you for a change? All this talk about what your body is doing, but what about the club? It has needs too. It also needs to move in a certain way in order to achieve a good strike. Alls I am saying, is why not take a backseat, and let the motion of the club take priority for once?
Because that doesn't work. It's wishful thinking. Plus that's basically what I did all last year - I tried to just think about the ball flight, impact etc. Inconsistent floundering is what I got.

I'm telling you, the incorrect hip movement is the cause of my club getting stuck, OTT, fatz, shankfests, and generally shitting swing.

I'm heading to the range...
I'm gonna hit a provisional
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Re: Early Extension

Post by srogers13 » Wed Jan 18, 2017 5:32 pm

Maybe you should try some ballroom dancing to work on your hip movements. :lolz :school
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