Spinning Wedge Shots

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legitimatebeef
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Spinning Wedge Shots

Post by legitimatebeef » Mon Jan 16, 2017 1:17 pm

This seems to be a favorite topic among hopeless hackers. Everyone wants to know: how do you achieve that back-spinning action on the short shots? There is a lot of knowledge out there, but as with all swing theory discussions also a lot of noise.

I've got some ideas but also want to hear other people's take on the subject. How is it done, why is it done, is there even a point? Is it mainly aesthetics? And so on.

My own take is that the actual backspinning is mainly the result of shallow angle of attack, clean contact and a brisk strike. Is there something I am missing perhaps?
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DougE
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Re: Spinning Wedge Shots

Post by DougE » Mon Jan 16, 2017 1:43 pm

Not necessarily a shallow angle, but you must hit down on the ball with ball first contact. Pickers usually don't put much backspin on their shots. I take a decent divot, myself. Lots of speed thru the ball is also necessary. Good sharp grooves help. A urethane covered ball is also helpful, though I have backed up NXT Tours and DT TruSofts in the past with wedges. And these shots all usually come from short grass lies or off a short tee. I back up my wedges regularly. Even my 9i on occasion. Most other clubs I get a one hop and stop with the hop being bigger on longer irons. A flop shot from the rough is totally different and relies on backspin only to keep the ball where it lands. It is unusual to see a ball back up from a flop. If it is executed properly, it just lands and stays right in that area.

A great reason to spin your ball back is when you have an approach to a front pin, with a bunker protecting it. Make sure you clear the bunker by hitting it a little long and try to work it back with spin. Or, when the pin is in a gully on the green. If you hit it to the far side of the gully, the spin, combined with a little slope will help it roll back towards the hole. There are many good reasons to backup your ball on the green if you have the ability to.

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Re: Spinning Wedge Shots

Post by bkuehn1952 » Mon Jan 16, 2017 2:01 pm

I only recall one of my shots having visibly backed-up in the past 25 years, other than a shot hit to a severe slope. Some stay close to the impact mark or actually come back a few inches or a foot but nothing significant that I can see from 80-100 yards away. So, I can't dispense any wisdom other than don't hit it like me.
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Re: Spinning Wedge Shots

Post by gpickin » Mon Jan 16, 2017 2:14 pm

My brother spins his with his Calloway Jaw wedges... and he uses tour quality balls. He spins a lot on flops, but his chip/bump and run check up and stop nicely.

I scoop them more than hit down, that and I play rocks, so I never get spin.
It would be nice to get shots to stop a little better... but I dont need the big spin. You have to hit greens to use it lol.

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Re: Spinning Wedge Shots

Post by legitimatebeef » Mon Jan 16, 2017 2:27 pm

DougE wrote:Not necessarily a shallow angle, but you must hit down on the ball with ball first contact. Pickers usually don't put much backspin on their shots. I take a decent divot, myself. Lots of speed thru the ball is also necessary. Good sharp grooves help. A urethane covered ball is also helpful, though I have backed up NXT Tours and DT TruSofts in the past with wedges.
I'd concede to DougE's superior wisdom and experience almost every time but it has been my experience over the last year or so, that I got way more action once I started playing short shots with a shallow attack. I used to be very steep, play the ball back and try to sort of "trap" it with a closed face. I managed to chip half-decently at times this way, but rarely ever achieved any of the coveted pull-back action. (Also with that type of action I never, ever came close to being a good pitcher, which convinces me that my technique did in fact, suck.)
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Re: Spinning Wedge Shots

Post by jasonfish11 » Mon Jan 16, 2017 3:12 pm

I spin back full wedges, actually 3/4 because I don't ever hit a full wedge.

I hate it because I fly the ball the right distance most the time.

I wish I could get less spin on 3/4 wedge shots. It makes back pin placements next to impossible. So much so that I've changed my club on the tee because I saw a back pin placement. I knew that I could hit a good drive a good wedge and spin it back 30' (green sloped back to front). So I pulled iron off the tee so I could hit 8/9i into the green and not have to worry about spinning it back.

I'd recommend that if you don't spin it back but have enough spin on 30-40 yard shots count your blessings.
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Re: Spinning Wedge Shots

Post by CeeBee » Mon Jan 16, 2017 5:22 pm

On occasion I can pull one back but not necessarily because I planned it. My attack angle is too steep. Play it back and rip it. Full swing almost every time. If the right club will land and stay in the area.
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Re: Spinning Wedge Shots

Post by DougE » Mon Jan 16, 2017 6:03 pm

legitimatebeef wrote: ...but it has been my experience over the last year or so, that I got way more action once I started playing short shots with a shallow attack. I used to be very steep, play the ball back and try to sort of "trap" it with a closed face. I managed to chip half-decently at times this way, but rarely ever achieved any of the coveted pull-back action. (Also with that type of action I never, ever came close to being a good pitcher, which convinces me that my technique did in fact, suck.)
I said not necessarily a shallow angle of attack. More important is that you hit down on the ball with ball first contact. You can do that just as easily (and actually better) with a shallow attack. For me, it's all about weight transfer, lag, and getting through the ball. I hit my irons from the inside, yet still take a decent divot. But I draw my short irons (and wedges), which is hard to do if you have a real steep angle or come over the top.

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Re: Spinning Wedge Shots

Post by jasonfish11 » Mon Jan 16, 2017 6:07 pm

Beef, when you say you are shallower now is that at the beginning of the downswing?

My understanding of the downswing is shallowing earlier leads to steeper AOA later. Where as steep earlier forces you to shallow out at the end.

So if you are now shallower early on you might have a steeper AOA.

But that is just a generalization as you know more about your swing than I do.
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Re: Spinning Wedge Shots

Post by CeeBee » Mon Jan 16, 2017 7:34 pm

Come to think about it I draw my irons too. All the way down to L/W.
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Re: Spinning Wedge Shots

Post by legitimatebeef » Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:50 pm

jasonfish11 wrote:Beef, when you say you are shallower now is that at the beginning of the downswing?

My understanding of the downswing is shallowing earlier leads to steeper AOA later. Where as steep earlier forces you to shallow out at the end.

So if you are now shallower early on you might have a steeper AOA.

But that is just a generalization as you know more about your swing than I do.
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Re: Spinning Wedge Shots

Post by legitimatebeef » Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:52 pm

DougE wrote:
legitimatebeef wrote: ...but it has been my experience over the last year or so, that I got way more action once I started playing short shots with a shallow attack. I used to be very steep, play the ball back and try to sort of "trap" it with a closed face. I managed to chip half-decently at times this way, but rarely ever achieved any of the coveted pull-back action. (Also with that type of action I never, ever came close to being a good pitcher, which convinces me that my technique did in fact, suck.)
I said not necessarily a shallow angle of attack. More important is that you hit down on the ball with ball first contact. You can do that just as easily (and actually better) with a shallow attack. For me, it's all about weight transfer, lag, and getting through the ball. I hit my irons from the inside, yet still take a decent divot. But I draw my short irons (and wedges), which is hard to do if you have a real steep angle or come over the top.
There is only one way to settle this. You and me in a chip off.
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Re: Spinning Wedge Shots

Post by DougE » Tue Jan 17, 2017 9:15 am

legitimatebeef wrote:
There is only one way to settle this. You and me in a chip off.
I think a full-wedge spin off from 100 yards out would be a better way. :P

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Re: Spinning Wedge Shots

Post by jasonfish11 » Tue Jan 17, 2017 9:30 am

legitimatebeef wrote: Image
Not sure if I can attach all photos in one post.

Here is an example of me (vertical in transition) and Sergio (shallow in transition) and fo photos of us with our hands pointed down.

Notice in the fo photos if you were to draw a line from the club head to the ball Sergio's line would be steeper. You may say this is because of his lag. But his lag is an effect of how shallow he is in transition not a cause.

So shallow in transition generally results in steeper AOA.
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Re: Spinning Wedge Shots

Post by jasonfish11 » Tue Jan 17, 2017 9:46 am

Ok the pictures are out of order but you can figure it out.
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Re: Spinning Wedge Shots

Post by legitimatebeef » Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:27 am

I'll be honest, I don't get it. My knowledge of swing is pretty retarded.
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Re: Spinning Wedge Shots

Post by jasonfish11 » Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:33 am

legitimatebeef wrote:I'll be honest, I don't get it. My knowledge of swing is pretty retarded.
At the top of your swing there is a given distance and angle to the ball. There are many ways to get there (see Furyk and Garcia's swings). Some are easier to repeat than others, and it will be different for each person. So ignore the "correct" way.

If you shallow one part of your downswing the other part has to steepen. Or else you'll wiff.
Shallow >> shallow = baseball.
Shallow >> steep = golf ball.
Steep >> shallow = golf ball.
Steep >> steep = broken toe.

This is assuming you aren't doing something else to compensate for the swing flaw (ie early extension, squatting, reverse spine tilt, lateral movement, ect...)
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Re: Spinning Wedge Shots

Post by legitimatebeef » Tue Jan 17, 2017 11:11 am

I feel that whether subconsciously or consciously you are trying to spread confusion. You keep that up and there's gonna only be one way left to settle this matter and it's not going to involve golf balls or wedges. It won't involve shirts either. :fkno
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Re: Spinning Wedge Shots

Post by jasonfish11 » Tue Jan 17, 2017 11:53 am

Certainly not intentional.

Also I'm not 100% sure I'm right (to be fair there are very few things in my life I'm 100% certain about).
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Re: Spinning Wedge Shots

Post by CeeBee » Tue Jan 17, 2017 12:28 pm

Which one is Sergio? ;)
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Re: Spinning Wedge Shots

Post by jasonfish11 » Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:36 pm

CeeBee wrote:Which one is Sergio? ;)
The one with out the "oh shit this will be fat" look on his face.
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Re: Spinning Wedge Shots

Post by legitimatebeef » Wed Jan 18, 2017 4:09 pm

I am noticing that I can hit a pitch shot quite thin and still have it stop pretty quick. Hogan mentions this sort of thing in the book: the low-flying wedge that looks like it was skulled but which bites immediately when it hits the green and then spins itself out close to where it landed. He also says it's "the most amazing shot in the modern pro's repertoire." :lolz

That must mean I am getting my supination on. :thrust
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