Learning to go low

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DougE
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Re: Learning to go low

Post by DougE » Wed Mar 08, 2017 10:30 am

bkuehn1952 wrote:
DougE wrote:For me, I get 140-150 yrds with my blade-style AP2 7i in summer/warm conditions, from the short grass/fairway, when I flush it. It's certainly doesn't have a juiced-up loft like a game improvement 7i. With firm conditions, it might roll out a bit more with a shot from light rough, with no spin, to 155-160. In the cold, it is drastically less. Guess I'm a wimp....or old....or both.
This time of year I start to believe I have finally lost it. Crush my driver...185 yards. :facepalm Crush my 7 iron and come up short from 130 yards. :facepalm
Glad I'm not the only one. As I stated above, in the cold, my distances are drastically less. A lot like yours. (215 crushed driver/135 flushed 7i.) Looking forward to light wind, warm temps, short sleeve polos and 20-30 extra yards. Coming soon to a golf course near you!

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Re: Learning to go low

Post by jasonfish11 » Wed Mar 08, 2017 11:21 am

DougE wrote:
bkuehn1952 wrote:
DougE wrote:For me, I get 140-150 yrds with my blade-style AP2 7i in summer/warm conditions, from the short grass/fairway, when I flush it. It's certainly doesn't have a juiced-up loft like a game improvement 7i. With firm conditions, it might roll out a bit more with a shot from light rough, with no spin, to 155-160. In the cold, it is drastically less. Guess I'm a wimp....or old....or both.
This time of year I start to believe I have finally lost it. Crush my driver...185 yards. :facepalm Crush my 7 iron and come up short from 130 yards. :facepalm
Glad I'm not the only one. As I stated above, in the cold, my distances are drastically less. A lot like yours. (215 crushed driver/135 flushed 7i.) Looking forward to light wind, warm temps, short sleeve polos and 20-30 extra yards. Coming soon to a golf course near you!
I always wondered why I don't see the same decrease others do in cold weather.

I think if you wear quality clothing, and stretch well you shouldn't see that drastic of a difference. Assuming your flexibility isn't hindered by clothing/cold muscles your carry distance shouldn't be that different. The roll out might be though.

Per Titleist R&D below a 20 degree temperature change only results in 1.5% reduction in distance. So a 250 yard drive in 70* weather would go 242.5 yards in 30* weather.

https://www.titleist.com/teamtitleist/b ... erformance
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Re: Learning to go low

Post by legitimatebeef » Wed Mar 08, 2017 11:43 am

I need to know about Titleist's methodology for this kind of testing before I'm giving it any credibility. On the face of it I don't believe this 1.5% per 20 degrees. I don't believe the figure, nor do I believe that the rate of change would be linear. You can't expect people to believe that distance is reduced at the same rate from 80 to 60 degrees as from 40 to 20. I'm no scientist but that's not how physics tends to work. Too simplistic.

A 1.5% difference in distance would hardly be noticeable. Most golfers would probably experience this kind of variance from day-to-day under ideal, uniform weather conditions. Look I play more golf in cold temperatures than anybody including these Titleist fuckfaces and given my experience I have no choice but outright reject this rather flimsy claim.
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Re: Learning to go low

Post by legitimatebeef » Wed Mar 08, 2017 11:59 am

I am angry now. I believe Titleist has outstanding R&D but I just don't trust that they've conducted any kind of exhaustive research on the effect of cold weather. It's hardly a pertinent issue for them. There is no competitive cold weather-specific golf gear market whatsoever. Playing golf in the cold is extreme fringe behavior. They don't really give a shit about the effect of cold on ball distance.
To negate this effect, we recommend playing with room temperature golf balls
The above is but one glaring issue with this discussion. How does one go about playing room temperature balls while playing golf outdoors? The answer is you can't. And I should ask, if I am assuming Titleist's claims are true, even if I did somehow keep all my golf balls at exactly 75º or whatever, it's only good for preventing a 1.5% loss of distance. Sorry it just don't add up. 1.5% has to be way, way less than a typical golfer's motherfuckin' standard deviation. Whatever fuck everyone.
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DougE
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Re: Learning to go low

Post by DougE » Wed Mar 08, 2017 12:05 pm

Theory.
Reality, much more different for me.

I wear modern golf clothing, not bulky stuff. I do yoga for golf before every round I play. I am as loose as I can be. My distance differences in temps between 40 degrees and 80 degrees is huge. Seriously, a 135 yard 7i in winter is good. In season, it is closer to 150 or even more. Dense, cold air has a lot of affect. So does cold, air temp golf balls. So does added clothing, golf designed or otherwise. So does cold wind. Added up, it all hurts those of us who don't have big fire power, probably more so, than those who do. I don't give a shit what has been published. I know my game and I know it affects me much more than has been theorized. And my guess is that BK and other seniors might agree. It ain't necessarily all black and white.

Same reason I don't get too hung up on indoor launch monitor findings. I use them for comparison between various club/shaft options. Not to see how far I actually hit the ball. I have proven over and over again, on the course, that what an indoor launch monitor says and what my actual distance is, measured by rangefinder, on the course, can be drastically different, and I am always longer than the monitor suggests, usually by 10-20 yards. Maybe I just hit the ball better outside, than inside a darkened room with no visual references like I might have outside. Whatever it is, launch monitors never give me what I know from playing over 125 rounds a year, using a rangefinder, what distance I truly hit the ball.

I'm old school. I use technology to help me theorize and make smart decisions around the course. But I believe in seat-of-the-pants feel/see-it-with-my-own-eyes confirmation much more.

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Re: Learning to go low

Post by legitimatebeef » Wed Mar 08, 2017 12:17 pm

The fact that Doug would speak out against Titleist speaks motherfuckin' volumes. Sorry for the language today. I gots me some aggravation.
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Re: Learning to go low

Post by Duke of Hazards » Wed Mar 08, 2017 12:18 pm

legitimatebeef wrote: The above is but one glaring issue with this discussion. How does one go about playing room temperature balls while playing golf outdoors? The answer is you can't.
Untrue. Check out your buddy Ben in the grip section of Five Fundamentals:

"to make sure my hands were warn enough at Carnoustie, I carried a hand warmer in each pocket ... ...These hand-warmers, incidentally, also served to keep the golf ball in my pocket nice and warm. A warm ball, you know, flies farther than a cold one."

https://www.amazon.com/HotHands-Hand-Wa ... and+warmer

Unfortunately, you run into rule 14-3/13.5.
This is my first time citing a USGA rule. Yay me.

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Re: Learning to go low

Post by DougE » Wed Mar 08, 2017 1:06 pm

You cannot use handwarmers within the rules. This winter, I was lazy and just kept my bag and balls inside the house each night so when I went out to play everything in the bag was room temp. However, as I have stated many times on many forums, if you are really concerned about playing warmed balls you can pre-heat them and keep them warm for a couple hours and somewhat warmer throughout the round with a little creativity. When it's really cold I will pre-heat with a heat lamp, heating pad or in nearly boiling water. Just before I leave the house, I wrap 5 or 6 of them in tin foil and put them in the thermal/cooler pocket of my bag. They stay warm well into the round. I no longer have a thermal pocket in my new bag. However, I have one of those new super-duper drink containers that guarantee to keep stuff hot or cold for 24 hours. So when I need to keep them warm in the winter going forward, I will drop a few in one of those containers. That may work longer than the thermal pocket did. But, I'm not worried about it at this point. Spring is knocking on the door.

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Re: Learning to go low

Post by Duke of Hazards » Wed Mar 08, 2017 1:12 pm

DougE wrote:You cannot use handwarmers within the rules.
You can (14-3/13), but only to warm your hands, not the ball (14-3/13.5).

Otherwise, you've got the cold ball thing sorted, since the rules only restrict you from warming the ball during the round, not before it.

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Re: Learning to go low

Post by legitimatebeef » Wed Mar 08, 2017 3:29 pm

DougE wrote:You cannot use handwarmers within the rules. This winter, I was lazy and just kept my bag and balls inside the house each night so when I went out to play everything in the bag was room temp. However, as I have stated many times on many forums, if you are really concerned about playing warmed balls you can pre-heat them and keep them warm for a couple hours and somewhat warmer throughout the round with a little creativity. When it's really cold I will pre-heat with a heat lamp, heating pad or in nearly boiling water. Just before I leave the house, I wrap 5 or 6 of them in tin foil and put them in the thermal/cooler pocket of my bag. They stay warm well into the round. I no longer have a thermal pocket in my new bag. However, I have one of those new super-duper drink containers that guarantee to keep stuff hot or cold for 24 hours. So when I need to keep them warm in the winter going forward, I will drop a few in one of those containers. That may work longer than the thermal pocket did. But, I'm not worried about it at this point. Spring is knocking on the door.
I am continually impressed by the dedication of DougE.
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Re: Learning to go low

Post by Duke of Hazards » Wed Mar 08, 2017 4:09 pm

DougE wrote: However, I have one of those new super-duper drink containers that guarantee to keep stuff hot or cold for 24 hours.
Are you talking about a Hydroflask? I'm wondering how that would work, putting warm balls in there? Have you tried it or are you just thinking of trying it? That's kind of genius if it works. Look at the big brain on Doug.

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Re: Learning to go low

Post by Coda1850 » Wed Mar 08, 2017 4:26 pm

Doug is & should be applauded for finding that extra inch of advantage... reminds me of a gentleman name Bill Belichick, 7 time SB champion!

...still giddy, btw. That comeback! That dynasty!!
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Re: Learning to go low

Post by bkuehn1952 » Wed Mar 08, 2017 5:02 pm

Coda1850 wrote:Doug is & should be applauded for finding that extra inch of advantage... reminds me of a gentleman name Bill Belichick, 7 time SB champion!

...still giddy, btw. That comeback! That dynasty!!
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Re: Learning to go low

Post by DougE » Wed Mar 08, 2017 6:01 pm

Duke of Hazards wrote:
DougE wrote: However, I have one of those new super-duper drink containers that guarantee to keep stuff hot or cold for 24 hours.
Are you talking about a Hydroflask? I'm wondering how that would work, putting warm balls in there? Have you tried it or are you just thinking of trying it? That's kind of genius if it works. Look at the big brain on Doug.
I have a Yeti insulated container. But there are many other brands. I have not tried it yet, but when I do, I will wrap the balls in a steaming hot cloth and stuff the whole thing into the container. Then carry the container in my bag. And, I don't think that is breaking any rules. The heating is done before the round and does not change the make up or design of the equipment any more than a 95* summer day might. Once the ball is out of the warmed container, which is simply a thermal container just like a thermal pocket in a cart bag, and put into play, the ball will slowly lose its warmth. However, as long as you put it back into the container (which continues to hold heat) after using it for a hole and replace it with a new warmed one for the next hole, you will continue to have warmer balls to use throughout the round, albeit not as warm as when you started.

I have checked into this on some rules forums around the net and always get a response that it is within the rules provided I heat them before the round and do not change the intended design of the ball in any way. However, I have not checked since I came up with the Yeti container concept. I only checked on the insulated pocket built in to the bag. Seems the same to me. Bottom line, when it's that cold, it's usually out of season anyway, so the whole point is moot. There are no rules.

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Re: Learning to go low

Post by legitimatebeef » Wed Mar 08, 2017 6:32 pm

It's fun to play within the constraints of the rules. :fkno Sure you could carry a powered heating bag to keep your balls in, but where is the fun in that. Sure you could spread personal lubricant on the face of your driver, where's the fun in that. There are always rules. :nope
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Re: Learning to go low

Post by Duke of Hazards » Wed Mar 08, 2017 6:41 pm

I think the takeaway here is that Doug has spent massive mental energies skirting as close to the razor's edge of the rules without crossing over them even when he doesn't have to.

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Re: Learning to go low

Post by jasonfish11 » Wed Mar 08, 2017 6:42 pm

Duke of Hazards wrote:I think the takeaway here is that Doug has spent massive mental energies skirting as close to the razor's edge of the rules without crossing over them even when he doesn't have to.
Yeah this was my thought. Given he can't post his score anyways (out of season), who cares if you have your ball sitting on a hand warmer in your pocket.
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Re: Learning to go low

Post by GBOGEY » Wed Mar 08, 2017 7:29 pm

DougE wrote:You cannot use handwarmers within the rules. This winter, I was lazy and just kept my bag and balls inside the house each night so when I went out to play everything in the bag was room temp. However, as I have stated many times on many forums, if you are really concerned about playing warmed balls you can pre-heat them and keep them warm for a couple hours and somewhat warmer throughout the round with a little creativity. When it's really cold I will pre-heat with a heat lamp, heating pad or in nearly boiling water. Just before I leave the house, I wrap 5 or 6 of them in tin foil and put them in the thermal/cooler pocket of my bag. They stay warm well into the round. I no longer have a thermal pocket in my new bag. However, I have one of those new super-duper drink containers that guarantee to keep stuff hot or cold for 24 hours. So when I need to keep them warm in the winter going forward, I will drop a few in one of those containers. That may work longer than the thermal pocket did. But, I'm not worried about it at this point. Spring is knocking on the door.
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Re: Learning to go low

Post by jfurr » Wed Mar 08, 2017 7:41 pm

DougE is the man
I'm gonna hit a provisional
HCP Index :facepalm

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Re: Learning to go low

Post by jfurr » Wed Mar 08, 2017 7:42 pm

I mean it makes sense, anyone that does that hardcore sailing stuff has to think and plan and be super resourceful.
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Re: Learning to go low

Post by bryan k » Thu Mar 09, 2017 7:59 am

1.5% of lost distance per 20 degrees?

So if you hit 250 when it is 100 degrees out, if you cool that by 80 degrees, you lose about 15 yards on your drive.

That sounds about right to me. Problem is, I think humidity and air pressure have just as much of an effect.

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Re: Learning to go low

Post by jasonfish11 » Thu Mar 09, 2017 9:16 am

bryan k wrote:1.5% of lost distance per 20 degrees?

So if you hit 250 when it is 100 degrees out, if you cool that by 80 degrees, you lose about 15 yards on your drive.

That sounds about right to me. Problem is, I think humidity and air pressure have just as much of an effect.

Humidity actually makes the ball go further. H2O is less dense than normal gasses found in the atmosphere (mainly O2 and N).

I'm not sure about air pressure. I would assume more air pressure = denser air = less distance, but I'm not positive.
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Re: Learning to go low

Post by DougE » Thu Mar 09, 2017 9:21 am

jasonfish11 wrote: I would assume more air pressure = denser air = less distance, but I'm not positive.
You are correct. High pressure equals denser air. Winter temps, combined with the typical high pressure that comes along with it, will affect the ball more negatively than just cold air alone.

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Re: Learning to go low

Post by jfurr » Thu Mar 09, 2017 7:55 pm

:school
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Re: Learning to go low

Post by bryan k » Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:41 pm

I played at a mountain golf course in a little town called Monticello, UT. It was the greatest course I've ever played. They told me it was over 8,000 feet. The only reason I asked is because I was extremely short of breath despite the fact that I was on a cart.

It was pretty chilly and damp when I started, but it was extremely hot by the time I was done. It might have just felt that way being so close to the sun, but my drives really started to carry on the back nine...probably a 20% increase from what I would have considered a median drive back then.

So yeah, thin air really does wonders on your distance.

High humidity has a different effect, though. I think the biggest effect humidity has on me is that it lessens my desire to move because if feels like I have to swing through Jell-o to make any kind of decent contact.

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