Backstopping/Collusion controversy in pro golf

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Backstopping/Collusion controversy in pro golf

Post by legitimatebeef » Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:42 pm

Backstopping (i.e. intentionally leaving balls near the hole when they are in a position to potentially assist a fellow competitors shot) seems to have come under increasing scrutiny lately, mainly by television commentators.

Now PGA Tour player Jimmy Walker, in a Twitter argument with a former pro golfer named Michael Clayton, has openly admitted that players do this for one another as a friendly courtesy. :facepalm The pathetic part is he did not even realize, not initially at least, there was anything unethical about what he admitted to.

Not that this should surprise anyone, but for the majority of players this is just a job. It's not about the spirit of competition. It's about clawing and scratching out a living just like in any other undignified job like automobile or real estate sales. And people bitch and moan when players like 5-time Masters Champion Tiger Woods command a bigger share of the audience. Well duh, that guy plays strictly for the glory and guess what, people like that tend to be more entertaining to watch vis a vis people who are just doing it for the money.

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Re: Backstopping/Collusion controversy in pro golf

Post by legitimatebeef » Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:21 am

Your silence on this matter screams complicity, to me at least. That's fine with me though. Outside of 5-time Masters Champion Tiger Woods making some noise at the odd tournament here or there, I am done with this make-believe crap.
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Re: Backstopping/Collusion controversy in pro golf

Post by jasonfish11 » Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:43 am

So when I play in tournaments my decision is based on how quickly the other player tends to play their shots. If I can get the ball and mark it w/o interrupting their routine or getting in their way then I do so. If I know they are quick I stay out of their way unless I know it won't bother them.

So for me you're getting an advantage if you are a quick player. If you are "deliberate" (ie the PC way of saying you are a slow mouth breathing pos) then I'm marking the ball.

I've never seen anyone ask me to leave a ball as a "backstop."
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Re: Backstopping/Collusion controversy in pro golf

Post by Duke of Hazards » Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:13 pm

Doesn't seem like a big deal. Backstop on, I say.
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Re: Backstopping/Collusion controversy in pro golf

Post by bkuehn1952 » Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:58 pm

jasonfish11 wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:43 am
So when I play in tournaments my decision is based on how quickly the other player tends to play their shots. If I can get the ball and mark it w/o interrupting their routine or getting in their way then I do so. If I know they are quick I stay out of their way unless I know it won't bother them.

Same here. If marking is going to hold things up, I let it go. Some people ask to have it marked so then I do it. If it is within 1-2 feet I often just putt out if I don't need to stand awkwardly or in someone's line (flag removed of course). I can't recall the last time someone hit my ball and it helped them.
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Re: Backstopping/Collusion controversy in pro golf

Post by legitimatebeef » Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:28 am

bkuehn1952 wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:58 pm
jasonfish11 wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:43 am
So when I play in tournaments my decision is based on how quickly the other player tends to play their shots. If I can get the ball and mark it w/o interrupting their routine or getting in their way then I do so. If I know they are quick I stay out of their way unless I know it won't bother them.

Same here. If marking is going to hold things up, I let it go. Some people ask to have it marked so then I do it. If it is within 1-2 feet I often just putt out if I don't need to stand awkwardly or in someone's line (flag removed of course). I can't recall the last time someone hit my ball and it helped them.
:onfire That's not what this is about. This is about intentional collusion on the part of professional tournament golfers. You scratch my back I'll scratch yours. Of course you guys don't see this happening in your meaningless little games because you're playing for fun, not a job.

The twitter video above couldn't be much clearer of an illustration. Both these guys are very close to the hole. One's ball is a couple feet from the hole, the other is chipping from like, 10 yards away. The flagstick is out indicating that there was plenty of opportunity to mark the ball sitting near the hole. But instead, these guys decided that because they like each other, that ball will be left in its place, so it may act as a backstop in the event the chip is hit too hard.

To me such a practice changes the very essence of the activity. It's no longer a competition, not in the purest sense. It is essentially a pyramid scheme. Aside from a few special events here and there, don't watch this shit IMO. It's a joke.
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Re: Backstopping/Collusion controversy in pro golf

Post by legitimatebeef » Mon Feb 25, 2019 1:17 pm

Backstopping collusion reared its ugly head again, this time on the LPGA tour. My only real reaction to this latest crap is dang, people are generally denser than I had realized. What I am talking about, is those people who saw nothing wrong, and rationalize it with "Durrrr, do you really think anybody is good enough to intentionally hit someone else's ball from 20+ yards out" :facepalm I am taken aback. At 42 years old, I thought I understood humanity's general level. Once in a while the world can still surprise you I guess.

If you do not understand what is moronic about this take, then you do not deserve to be enlightened. No, you should just sit there and wallow in your own density. Not everything is meant to be understood, by everyone, all the time.

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Re: Backstopping/Collusion controversy in pro golf

Post by legitimatebeef » Mon Feb 25, 2019 1:28 pm

If she was good enough to hit the ball intentionally, then she would've just hit the ball in the hole. Am I right or am I wrong here
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Re: Backstopping/Collusion controversy in pro golf

Post by legitimatebeef » Mon Feb 25, 2019 1:29 pm

Build a bridge and get over it.

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Re: Backstopping/Collusion controversy in pro golf

Post by legitimatebeef » Mon Feb 25, 2019 1:30 pm

But hey I don't want to shut down anyone's opinion. If anyone wants to enlighten me, by all means. The floor is all yours.
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Re: Backstopping/Collusion controversy in pro golf

Post by jasonfish11 » Mon Feb 25, 2019 1:37 pm

legitimatebeef wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 1:30 pm
But hey I don't want to shut down anyone's opinion. If anyone wants to enlighten me, by all means. The floor is all yours.
The only reason I don't care anymore about backstopping, is because the USGA and R&A have decided to make the rules of golf a big fucking joke.

So if they don't care why should I care?

This example was clearly a breach of the rule and for anyone to not be penalized here is laughable. Yet the new "drop" rule is written in a way that penalized Rickie, and lets not forget the whole lining up your shot debacle. The rules have been thoroughly bastardized. Also the rumors that the USGA and R&A weren't thinking people might putt with the flag in as a benefit. I'd like to say that would shock me, but them not thinking seems to be what they do best.

For these "new improved" rules to take 5 years to develop and have so many massive holes in them is just a disgrace.

Unless I get my handicap down to a 1.4 so I could throw $150 away in regional qualifying for the US Open, I'll never be giving money to these dumb asses.
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Re: Backstopping/Collusion controversy in pro golf

Post by legitimatebeef » Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:13 pm

You tell em boss.
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Re: Backstopping/Collusion controversy in pro golf

Post by bkuehn1952 » Mon Feb 25, 2019 4:08 pm

From the "New" USGA 2019 Rules of Golf - Interpretations

15.3a/1 – Breach of Rule for Leaving Helping Ball in Place Does Not Require Knowledge
In stroke play, under Rule 15.3a, if two or more players agree to leave a ball in place on the putting green to help any player, and the stroke is made with the helping ball left in place, each player who made the agreement gets two penalty strokes. A breach of Rule 15.3a does not depend on whether the players know that such an agreement is not allowed.

For example, in stroke play, before playing from just off the putting green, a player asks another player to leave his or her ball that is near the hole, in order to use it as a backstop. Without knowing this is not allowed, the other player agrees to leave his or her ball by the hole to help the other player. Once the stroke is made with the ball in place, both players get the penalty under Rule 15.3a.

The same outcome would apply if the player whose ball was near the hole offered to leave the ball in play to help the other player, and the other player accepted the offer and then played.

If the players know that they are not allowed to make such an agreement, but still do it, they are both disqualified under Rule 1.3b(1) for deliberately ignoring Rule 15.3a.



Of course, someone has to call the penalty. The players will, of course state that they did not want to delay play by making the next player wait to chip while the first player went forward and marked their ball. I suppose if someone is 50 yards away after chipping their ball to 2 feet, and I am ready to play from 20 feet, it makes sense. When it would take 10 seconds to go mark, it makes a lot less sense.

Also, the players are savvy enough to never verbalize anything close to an agreement. Instead they likely say: "I will go mark?" and the reply, "Don't bother, I am ready to play."

Sooner or later (probably sooner), one of the Tours is going to slap a penalty on two players for "backstopping".
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Re: Backstopping/Collusion controversy in pro golf

Post by Duke of Hazards » Mon Feb 25, 2019 5:21 pm

WTF kind of rule is that? If two or more players 'agree' (to help)? A breach doesn't require knowledge of the rule? If the players know that they are not allowed to make such an agreement, but still do it, they are both disqualified?

It basically says, 'if you're going to cheat, but aren't an idiot, then you'll be fine, no penalty. If you're ignorant, take 2 strokes. If you're a complete moron, get the fuck out of here, you're disqualified.'

Anyone with half a brain is going to do what Brian said and completely skirt the rule.
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Re: Backstopping/Collusion controversy in pro golf

Post by jasonfish11 » Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:12 am

I think a "celebratory" fist bump after using someone else's ball shows that there was an "unspoken" agreement. I feel that is enough to indicate that both people should be assessed 2 strokes.

I would have even backed a DQ for both players to set an example.

Image
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Re: Backstopping/Collusion controversy in pro golf

Post by jasonfish11 » Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:16 am

Actually I'm pretty sure I'm correct, from a pure legal standpoint there does not need to be formal communication to enact a contract.

Quazi contracts are legal and binding in many situations.

Example if you are sitting on your front porch and a lawn maintenance company starts cutting your grass. They aren't your company and you've never talked to them before. But you decide to not stop them and just let them go about their business. Once they are done they bill you $100 and you refuse to pay. A judge will deem this a quazi contract, so long as the bill is reasonable, because you were aware of the acts they were taking and you'd be liable for paying the $100.

So the above video clearly shows an unspoken agreement by the celebration at the end. Legally to me this is an agreement. DQ time suckers.
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Re: Backstopping/Collusion controversy in pro golf

Post by legitimatebeef » Tue Feb 26, 2019 9:33 am

Amy Olson's statement afterwards was totally incriminating as well. She attempted to acquit herself by claiming that

a) she was trying to speed up play ( :puke )
b) she didn't realize backstopping was any kind of an issue, since she "doesn't watch much PGA"
c) from now on, she is going to mark everything around the hole

Couldn't be more incriminating, in other words. What's going on here is actually just more rampant sexism and male chauvinism in 2019. They didn't mean any harm, these "girls", in fact, they meant well! (obviously!) So back off these "girls" and let them have their fun! Amy Olson is fully complicit in keeping her own gender down in the gutter. Instead of sucking it up like an adult, accepting her mistake even though it might have been (mostly) unintentional, and taking the penalty with dignity, she basically put up the "But I'm just a woman!" defense.

Is basically the message the LPGA is sending. They initially even put up a tweet highlighting the play, even going so far as to congratulate the girls on a successful collusion, before they realized their error and deleted it. In 2019, Fuck everybody! :fu
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Re: Backstopping/Collusion controversy in pro golf

Post by jasonfish11 » Tue Feb 26, 2019 9:42 am

legitimatebeef wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 9:33 am

a) she was trying to speed up play ( :puke )
b) she didn't realize backstopping was any kind of an issue, since she "doesn't watch much PGA"
c) from now on, she is going to mark everything around the hole
I'd have assessed her some random penalty just for her 2nd excuse. WTF how is it possible you are a professional golfer and you don't know backstopping is an "issue." You are either lying or you have your head in the sand. I'd weight these 2 options around 99% and 1% respectfully.
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Re: Backstopping/Collusion controversy in pro golf

Post by legitimatebeef » Tue Feb 26, 2019 9:51 am

It is insanely dishonest to say that it didn't occur to you that an object lying at rest just beyond the hole could potentially help your shot. It's almost like claiming that you didn't realize that the shortest distance between two points was a straight line. We are talking basic, basic physics here. I wonder how this would play out in a court of law. I.e. a person was fully aware that there was a ball lying near the hole, and yet claims she wasn't aware that that ball could possibly help. YEAH RIGHT

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Re: Backstopping/Collusion controversy in pro golf

Post by legitimatebeef » Tue Feb 26, 2019 9:55 am

jasonfish11 wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:12 am
I think a "celebratory" fist bump after using someone else's ball shows that there was an "unspoken" agreement. I feel that is enough to indicate that both people should be assessed 2 strokes.

I would have even backed a DQ for both players to set an example.

https://goo.gl/images/KbK753
IMG tags for images. :facepalm
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Re: Backstopping/Collusion controversy in pro golf

Post by jasonfish11 » Tue Feb 26, 2019 9:55 am

legitimatebeef wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 9:51 am
It is insanely dishonest to say that it didn't occur to you that an object lying at rest just beyond the hole could potentially help your shot. It's almost like claiming that you didn't realize that the shortest distance between two points was a straight line. We are talking basic, basic physics here.
To be fair a lot of people feel that leaving the pin in is a disadvantage from a physics standpoint. So "basic physics" unfortunately is not a synonym for common knowledge. People are dumb beef.
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Re: Backstopping/Collusion controversy in pro golf

Post by jasonfish11 » Tue Feb 26, 2019 9:56 am

legitimatebeef wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 9:55 am
jasonfish11 wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:12 am
I think a "celebratory" fist bump after using someone else's ball shows that there was an "unspoken" agreement. I feel that is enough to indicate that both people should be assessed 2 strokes.

I would have even backed a DQ for both players to set an example.

https://goo.gl/images/KbK753
IMG tags for images. :facepalm
The IMG tags worked really well on the gif. :facepalm
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Re: Backstopping/Collusion controversy in pro golf

Post by legitimatebeef » Tue Feb 26, 2019 9:56 am

Oops, that is unless the image is not hot-linkable.
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Re: Backstopping/Collusion controversy in pro golf

Post by legitimatebeef » Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:06 am

jasonfish11 wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 9:55 am
legitimatebeef wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 9:51 am
It is insanely dishonest to say that it didn't occur to you that an object lying at rest just beyond the hole could potentially help your shot. It's almost like claiming that you didn't realize that the shortest distance between two points was a straight line. We are talking basic, basic physics here.
To be fair a lot of people feel that leaving the pin in is a disadvantage from a physics standpoint. So "basic physics" unfortunately is not a synonym for common knowledge. People are dumb beef.
I know people are dumb. Do you really think Amy Olson didn't see Ariya's ball as a potential aid? Even in the deepest depths of her subconscious? Amy Olson not exactly a golf star, but she still makes her living playing golf which means she plays a lot of freakin golf.

I'm not willing to give her the "dumb" pass. Maybe she didn't cheat in her conscious mind, but subconsciously she absolutely did. Let's say Ariya's ball happened to come to rest directly in Amy's line. Would she then not realize that Ariya's ball could prevent her from holing her own ball? Of course not. She would wait for Ariya to mark that ball.

If a person can understand that a ball lying in their line is BAD, then they understand that a ball lying outside of their line, just beyond the hole, can be GOOD.

Saying you didn't realize that could happen, is almost like saying you knocked a glass off a table, but didn't realize that gravity would make it fall to the floor.

In other words, Amy Olson subconsciously cheated. She didn't catch herself, and she also failed to take proper responsibility after the fact. Then again the LPGA basically enabled all this. They set her up to dodge responsibility. Giving her the benefit of the doubt, I believe she would've accepted the penalty just fine had the LPGA applied it. Everyone--the LPGA, Amy, the TV audience--would have been better off. Now, a cloud of suspicion will trail all involved parties. And for what? Sparing two players a ghastly, inhumane two stroke penalty. Oh the horror, two strokes. :facepalm Jesus Christ. The world is truly going to hell.
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Re: Backstopping/Collusion controversy in pro golf

Post by legitimatebeef » Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:31 pm

Build a bridge and get over it.

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